Seriously, WTF, man??? Comics these days! Oy!

(Warning: Angry, expletive-laced fanboy rant ahead. If you're not a big fan of those, just skip down to the question at the very end.)


I have been a major comic fan since I was a kid and Mom first introduced me to Archie. DC, Marvel, Image, Dark Horse... At one point, I read and liked 'em all.

I have a confession to make now. This hurts to say it, but... *sigh*

I fucking hate comics.

It isn't that I'm burned out on them. Good God, no! Hell, there are times I'd still like to go into the industry as an artist! No, it isn't the medium itself I'm tired of.

It's the stories, man, the damn stories!!

(Warning: Major spoilers ahead...)

Over at Marvel, they have this compulsion to kill off and eventually resurrect every damn X-Man in the line-up (when they're not adding in a gaggle of easily forgetful new teenybopper mutants who will change power sets, codenames and costumes by the week's end, but it's okay because we'll have already forgotten who the hell they were in the first place), killing off major characters (Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, et cetera ad nauseum) at the end of major crossovers (Civil War, Secret Invasion, etc.), then restoring them to life near the end of the next crossover (after their copyright renewal contracts have passed muster, I'm sure) and rearranging their slowly falling-apart universe at every possible moment with some New, Big, Important Crossover of the Year. (Remember when industry-wide crossovers like Secret War, Fatal Attractions [which was really only a 30th Anniversary X-Men/Avengers crossover] or ONSLAUGHT were rare - done maybe two or three times a decade - and didn't happen every fucking year? Yeah, I miss those days, too...) First, it's Civil War, where we outlaw half of Marvel's characters in some massive "gun control" allegory that has already been done to death in Uncanny X-Men, oh, two decades ago. Good idea, extremely flawed execution, piss-poor editorially-mandated ending. (All the action happened in the monthly books, with the actual six-part Civil War series itself regurgitating massive universe-changing events without rhyme or reason based on an extremely threadbare-to-nonexistent "plot". This is, of course, when the various series writers - some liberal, some conservative, some libertarian and some anarchist - who had no idea how the fucking thing was supposed to end weren't undermining each other's stories and slipping "clever" political references in now and then. "Killing off" Speedball at a mock trial where he's paying for a criminal's obvious and very public attack for no damn reason, making his death look exactly scene-per-scene like Lee Harvey Oswald's murder in custody, then bringing Speedball back as an S&M self-hating practitioner of extreme self-torture in a black-and-red spiked gimp suit - cool costume, by the way, and I do mean that - called "Penance"? Was all that even necessary, really? It's not like most comic readers even knew who the hell Speedball was, anyway...) Then it's Secret Invasion, where we have a Skrull infiltration and invasion... uh, just because... y'know, aliens like to kill us and shit. Whatever. Then it's Dark Reign, where Obama hands control of all of America's superheroes over to the Green Goblin. (I am not making that shit up! Read the damn comics yourself if you don't believe me!) Now, it's The Heroic Age, where Marvel hits the big cosmic "Reset" button and sets everything back to the late 1970s/early 1980s (while still having heroes killing people at random in graphically bloody and nonsensical ways just to show how "modern" and "edgy" they are; this is, of course, when the characters aren't fucking every available ass in sight, going way out of character to do so, because all comic book characters are raging sluts now, for some reason). Every comic book character has gone from being an honorable person in a mask to a total psychotic, neurotic, sociopathic, homicidal or narcissistic nutball in a goofy skintight suit. (Except Iron Man; he's still a power-mad recovering alcoholic skirt-chaser, God bless him. He's the one character they can write correctly.) To say nothing of having Spider-Man reveal his identity to the public and fight on behalf of The Man, then make a deal with the Devil to get rid of his twenty-year marriage, save Aunt May from death (even though we all know the old bat's been ready to "move on" for some time now), resurrect Harry Osborne for no reason whatsoever and make everyone forget that he showed them who he was under the mask (I am not making any of that shit up!), then put him in a relationship with some girl who came out of nowhere and just so happens to have the exact same name as the Marvel Comics Editor-in-Chief's daughter, who suddenly everyone in his life loves (can you say "Mary Sue"?) and suddenly thinks he's perfect for, including his now ex-wife whose marriage was nullified from existence by act of Satan. *deep breath* (Again, I am not making any of that shit up! Comics, ladies and gentlemen!) The reason for all this nonsense, you ask? Because the Editor-in-Chief wants it to be so. Many of these moves have lost Marvel hundreds of readers and made long-time, super-talented, high-paid, wildly popular writers (like Babylon 5 creator and former Amazing Spider-Man scribe J. Michael Straczynski) quit in frustration and swear off working with Marvel Comics.

Don't get me wrong! Some of those stories had awesome ideas behind them! BUT, as former Marvel Editor-in-Chief Tom DeFalco put it, "A good idea does not a story make [emphasis mine]." A story is made when a good idea gives birth to a great plot and emerges from the fertile mind of a talented writer who brings the story about in logical progression, gives it a spectacular ending and is paired with a bloody awesome artist. That's how you make a good comic.

Good comics haven't been made since 2000. (Don't argue with me! It's science, dammit!) The new writers (Mark Miller and Brian Michael Bendis, for example) do have talent, but they work on several books at once and are so rushed to put out their work on deadline that their creativity is aborted before it's born. You have good ideas with piss-poor executions, when they're even executed - as in "done properly" - at all (as opposed to "executed" as in "you killed your fucking story, you brainless twit!"). Worse, Marvel will hire incredibly talented writers - hell, they'll hire fucking movie or television writers (Kevin "Silent Bob" Smith, Back To the Future scribe Bob Gale, the aforementioned J. Michael Straczynski - all three of those bad-asses have worked on Amazing Spider-Man or some variation thereof in the past decade - and Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Firefly creator Joss Whedon) - and either the deadlines will kill the story (like Kevin Smith's Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do, though much of that was largely his own damn fault) or editorially-mandated changes or endings will fuck the story over. (Straczynski was forced to erase the popular Peter Parker/Mary Jane Watson marriage from existence at the end of One More Day, and after Straczynski fled the chicken coop as fans' anger mounted, Marvel's Editor-in-Chief, Joe Quesada, hired poor Bob Gale to take the fans' heat and write the continuity-rebooting sequel Brand New Day. Only Gale's talented writing kept the book going... but c'mon, making J. Jonah Jameson mayor of New York, then having Peter catch Jameson's father fucking Aunt May?? Who the hell thought any of that shit was a good idea?!? And you can tell the character of Carlie Cooper - again, a character named after Joe Quesada's daughter - was forced into the story by Quesada because she's written like a Mary Sue, and seeing such fetid fecal fiction forced from the plundered pen of a skilled scribe such as Bob Gale by editorial edict is damned disgraceful.) Of course, let's not forget the mean-spirited fan-taunting (using puzzle-piece covers all year long to make fans think the EIC actually gives a damn what the fans think and is actually going to bring back the Peter Parker/Mary Jane Watson marriage, then taking an unholy shit right on their hopes and expectations by releasing the one-shot story One Moment In Time [get it? OMIT? as in omit the marriage from continuity?], which only solidified the continuity-fuck) or the truly bizarre (Spider-Man's guest appearance by Jay Fucking Leno on a motorcycle, a "jump the shark" moment if I ever saw one) or the outright unnecessary and astoundingly stupid (the 2006 Marvel Comics/Guiding Light crossover; again, I am so not making this shit up!)... You think the 2009 buyout of Marvel Comics by the Walt Disney Company would make things better, right? More editorial oversight? Kid-friendly comics? Nope! It actually made things worse, because now Marvel's EIC can draw from the nigh-limitless Disney funds and doesn't have to actually listen to the fans anymore at all.

(Look, I know I harped on the whole Peter Parker/Mary Jane Watson marriage thing a lot there, but look at it through the eyes of a fan who is passionate about these characters for a moment. Peter Parker's defining attribute - aside from his snarky humor - is responsibility. Having him make a deal with the Devil to erase the most important responsibility he could ever willingly take on - the bond of matrimony [not to mention the only thing that's ever gone right in his miserable life] - for the least developed, least plausible so-called "reason" possible just so he can go back to being the "younger", "play-the-field" Parker is just so against his nature that it doesn't even seem like I'm reading the same damn character anymore. That really is the official reason behind Quesada ditching the marriage, too! Because, in Quesada's own words, marriage "ages" the character too much (guess Quesada didn't know as many teenage couples as I did). That's the big reason. He even went on to state in interviews that he wants Peter Parker to play the field more and get into annoying love triangle situations left and right, like Archie with the Betty/Veronica nonsense (question: how badly have Archie Comics' sales been slipping again?). That, dear readers, is why I harp on it so.)

On the other hand, DC Comics (the "DC" means "Detective Comics", so their official company name is really "Detective Comics Comics") - which hasn't had a well-written, sell-out, high-profile story since The Death and Return of Superman (I realize the whole "Superman Blue" story was high-profile, but it definitely wasn't well-written) - has really surprised me lately! They've actually put out a few dozen high-profile stories that were really, really good! (Not company-wide crossovers, either, though they - like Marvel - have been whoring those out like Heidi Fleiss lately.) President Luthor (which is exactly what the name suggests; back in 2000, people were so frustrated with both Gore and Dubya that DC offered a third candidate - Lex Luthor - and allowed their readers to choose which of the three they wanted as president; the readers unanimously voted Luthor in as President of the United States in the DC Universe), Up, Up and Away, the recent Braniac saga, the New Krypton and War of the Supermen stories (all of those Superman stories, and Superman needed some good stories, because his sales had gone to shit before the year 2000), Hush, War Games, War Crimes, Batman & Son, Batman R.I.P., Battle for the Cowl and Batman, Incorporated (all of them Batman stories, as the titles suggested)... All of these have been fan favorites, and all of them (with the exception of the ending to War of the Supermen) have been damn impressive.

For one thing, DC has at least attempted to listen to their fans. When they kill off a character that the fans liked - specifically Martian Manhunter, Hal Jordan and Oliver Queen - they found relatively reasonable ways to bring them back from the dead. (I'll get to the unreasonable ways in a minute.) For the most part, the DC Comics EIC meddles in storylines very little (except for the stupid Crises, which I'll address soon enough) and prefers to let their incredibly talented writers - guys who can take books that haven't been selling at all and transform them into top sellers seemingly overnight - actually tell the stories they want to tell. They work with their writers, not against them. (When health issues and pressing deadlines on another project forced J. Michael Straczynski to leave his current Superman and Wonder Woman story arcs after only four issues on each, DC Comics didn't try to pressure him into staying on and allowed him to leave, and even allowed him to choose who would take over the stories after he left using his story notes. I won't even go into the free reign they've given Grant Morrison; we'd be here all night if I went into that.)

Moreover, they hire writers who have good ideas and actually let them take those ideas to fruition. Kevin Smith went to DC Comics, told them he could triple the sales of the Green Arrow series if the editors let him bring Oliver Queen back from the dead. They did, and Smith made goon on his promise; sales of Green Arrow soared. Since then, Smith has penned two Batman mini-series - Cacophony and The Widening Gyre - and DC has allowed him free reign. Both series have turned out fairly well and have been selling like mad. During his time with the Batman books, Grant Morrison has come up with some off-the-wall ideas - giving Batman a son, "killing off" Bruce Wayne, replacing him with his former sidekick, bringing him back as a new second Batman and having him start a franchise by hiring various heroes in major cities worldwide to be their country's Batman - and those off-beat ideas have paid off, thanks to Morrison's stellar writing.

For starters, they tend to copy Marvel way too much, and Marvel responds by copying DC. Marvel hires Kevin Smith and J. Michael Straczynski; DC hired Kevin Smith and J. Michael Straczynski. (Um, guys? How about you quit dicking around with comics and go back to writing TV and movies for a while, huh? You can still get writing jobs in Hollywood, right?) Marvel Comics does a zombie story (Marvel Zombies) or two (all the fucking spin-offs and their crossover with Army of Darkness), DC Comics does their own (Blackest Night, where tons of old dead superheroes are resurrected and turned into corpsified villains; not to be outdone, Marvel did another zombie story - the Necrosha X-Men saga written by Joss Whedon). Marvel does a poorly-written universe-shattering industry-wide crossover (Civil War); DC does a poorly-written universe-shattering industry-wide crossover (Final Crisis). DC dramatically alters a character's continuity for no reason (Superman); Marvel dramatically alters a character's continuity for no reason (Spider-Man). DC gives one of their characters a son (first they gave Superman a biological son in the movie Superman Returns, then they gave him and Lois an adopted Kryptonian son in the comic story Up, Up and Away; they would later give Batman a test tube kid in Batman & Son); Marvel gives one of their characters a son (they gave Wolverine a cloned daughter named X-23 and a "long lost" biological son named Dakken). On and on and on...

Another thing: all the damn Crises. It started back in 1985-1986 with Crisis on Infinite Earths. From 1932 (first issue of Action Comics featuring Superman) to 1985, DC Comics didn't really care much for that killjoy concept called "continuity" and published stories that didn't really jive with each other. One decade, Superman's human parents would be dead, he wouldn't start his superhero "career" until he was an adult and he was essentially Dirty Harry with a cape who was more than willing to toss rapists out of really high-up windows. (That was the Superman of the 1930s and 1940s: a bulletproof flying vigilante in a Metropolis that was a lot more like Gotham City; understandable, as both fictional cities were based on Chicago.) The next decade, Superman began his career as a little boy (hence "Superboy"), his parents were still alive and he refused to kill bad guys. As each decade passed, he seemingly gained a new super-power (flight, heat-vision, the ability to turn back time by flying backwards around the planet) and another relative/pet refugee from Krypton (Supergirl, Mon-El, Krypto the Superdog, Beppo the Superchimp, I only wish I was making these names up) until the phrase "Last Son of Krypton" no longer had any meaning. And this is what DC did to one character out of the thirty or so characters they had. To clear up all the confusion, they rebooted the entire fucking universe with a massive story called Crisis on Infinite Earths. The story: All of the conflicting stories of every super-hero were "true" because they took place in alternate realities. A big, universe-destroying bad guy given the unimaginative and easily-forgettable name "Anti-Monitor" destroyed all the other alternate universes and combined them into one coherent universe. This is why comic geeks divide DC Comics history into "Pre-Crisis" and "Post-Crisis". This allowed DC Comics to "reboot" all their characters and start over from Day One. All in all, mission accomplished. Well-written story, lots of drama, lots of suspense, lots of action, it accomplished all of the Editor-in-Chief's goals and sold more books than anything DC Comics had done before then.

DC began meddling with continuity again later in the 2000s, so this necessitated another Crisis (DC's official term for a universe-shattering event) - Identity Crisis (which revealed that the DC superheroes have been using magic to erase the memories of villains who have committed horrible atrocities and heroes who have been victimized by said atrocities; villains and regular people who accidentally learn the secret identities of superheroes; and Batman [the Chuck Norris of the DC Universe], because he would probably have objected to either of the former, and because everyone knows Batman's bad-ass enough to bitch-slap Superman around, so nobody wants Batman to remember anything that might piss him off). Would've been fine after that... until the writers (remember, DC Comics generally allows their writers free reign, so this is bound to cause conflicts!) started dicking around with established continuity again. This necessitated Infinite Crisis. This story brought the idea of alternate universes back; this was a much needed move after DC Comics - partially by editorial decree due to the alarming success of Smallville and particularly due to the whims of Superman: Birthright author Mark Waid - changed Superman's history three fucking times in a span of two years. I forgot all the details because the story of Infinite Crisis was infinitely dull, but it somehow involved an alternate universe Superboy gone evil literally punching the barriers of reality, which caused several changes to the timeline, like giving Superman three fucking origin stories and bringing Jason Todd - Batman's second Robin, who had stayed dead up 'till then (fortunately) - back from the dead at random ("Superboy punching the boundaries of reality" is now the DC Comics version of "a wizard did it", when it comes to lazy half-assed explanations for stupid shit). Again, not making any of this shit up. Since that story caused enough chaos to give the entire editorial staff migraines, another damn Crisis was needed: Final Crisis (yeah, right). That story was crapped out so fast (by Grant Fucking Morrison, no less!) that I won't even comment on how bad it was.

This brings up another grievous sin of DC's: fucking endless industry-wide crossovers every damn year. Are they not learning anything from Marvel? (I guess they're learning how much people will pay through the nose for bad writing.) Identity Crisis, Countdown to Infinite Crisis, Infinite Crisis, 52, Final Crisis, Blackest Night, Brightest Day... fucking stop it already!! That's bad enough, but remember the shoddy, rushed-out writing I mentioned as one of Marvel's sins? Taking old, tried-and-true heroes and making them uncharacteristically hyper-violent? Guess who's doing it, too!


Ultimately, I have sworn off comics. Aside from Image's The Walking Dead, Grant Morrison's run on the Batman books (the only good story DC's telling right now), IDW's Star Trek comics (I know, someone's actually putting out good Trek comics for once! it shocked the shit out of me, too!) and the occasional indie horror story, I don't read them anymore. I don't ever buy them anymore. (I'm buying the entire six-issue mini-series crossover The X-Files/30 Days of Night - which has received rave reviews - this weekend; this is probably the first time I've actually bought comics since 2007.) I can't even stand to see anything with the Marvel logo on it at Hasting's anymore. (I've literally boycotted any and all Spider-Man comics published after 2007.) Like I said, I still like comics; I just can't put up with the shit stories, the primadonna editors and the hack writing anymore.

Remember when comics used to be fun? When they used to have interesting stories? (That was, what, 1995?) When the artwork wasn't the only reason to pick up a comic and read it? When you didn't read a comic because so-and-so wrote it, but because the story was good? When you didn't feel obligated to read a comic because it was part of some ultra-mega-super-crossover and you just had to have the next issue so you could find out who died (which didn't matter, 'cause they'll be coming back from the dead a few months later, anyway)? When a good plot mattered, when characters died and stayed dead (unless they were a villain; there's an old storyteller's rule: "you can't kill the Devil")? Do you remember when comics were enjoyable?


My question to you is this:

Are you as fucking fed up with the direction comics have been taking lately? All
"sparkle & style" and no substance? Have you given up on 'em, too? Do you still read any? If so, which ones? Do you still read Marvel or DC? Why? Do you think comics will ever be fun again?

I have honestly never read a comic book in my life...

*leaves topic in shame*

There's an option missing Agent B. ...What about "I'm not a comics reader" ?
Yes I know you put "I have no opinion/I couldn't care less".

Let's do things this way, I tell you my opinion, you tell me where to click...

See, I'm not a comics reader, but it happens now and then that I stumble into one and have a quick look. From my perspective they are going in the same direction as everything else (cinema, tv, radio... ). I find it good. Do they suck? that'd be great because it would bring to a turning point in the not too distant future going back to a renewed splendor. Are they good? that'd be great because it would mean that comics readers have good material for themselves.
When it comes to progress I'm always skeptic about negative judgement, media follow the needs of a society in constant evolution and adapt themselves to new generations, which may make us feel betrayed or worse left out, I think the greatest challenge growing up is to keep attuned with the world itself.

Thanks for this pool, it was food for thought for me.

I would have gone with two if you omitted the "soap opera" part.

I think the major labels (DC, Marvel) are pretty well putting out trash they think is popular whereas the underground/smaller comic companies (IDW, iMage) are putting out fantastic comics. So no, I don't think there is a difference in what they're putting out, I just think the good ones have shifted to other companies.

Trust me, good comics are there is you look hard enough.

I must admit, I never readed comic books other than '60/'70s republished batman comics(Well, that was the only thing to do in english class...) but from the first paragraph I've read(since I don't get enough concentration to read that awesomely long post ) and when we compare to film industry, it seems to be ''normal'', sell more, forget the fanbase, get as many ''buyers'' as possible etc.

I have read a few comics in the past, but not more than one or two new ones in the last 10, 15 years. I therefore cannot comment or vote on the poll.

I have stumbled onto something called graphic novel (which could be a bad usage of English by people in my country in order to sound intelligent or be an actual English term, IDK). It's basically a good novel made into a comic or cartoon (I don't know the difference). I haven't read any, as I usually prefer the book. Since they usually pair great painters with good novels, that might be something you could explore?

"Graphic novel," in English, is any long-form work in visual formats. While that includes translations of literature, it also includes the like of "V for Vendetta" and "Watchmen" (although, to be fair, those were issues as partworks beforehand, and edited into graphic novel format). In those, I tend to see the last worthwhile breath of the graphic arts. Comics thesedays are - like nearly all things - tending to the pointless.

I can't vote for option 2 for the same reason as Spidey mentioned.
I don't really know much about Marvel or DC really, I've read quite a few X-Men comics, but beyond that, nothing.
Like I said in the film thread, I was a 2000ad fan, I was actually reminiscing about the comic (I stopped buying in 2003, for no particular reason) since then, ABC Warriors, Rogue Trooper, Editor Tharg, and some of my fave Dredd storylines like "Tale of a deadman" & "Necropolis".

I think I might start getting them again (probably online though) or maybe the Judge Dredd Megazine to see what they're like now.
I really wish I'd hung on to my comics, I only have a couple

Comics are definitely getting better. Superhero comics on the other hand are shitty, and, minus the 60s/70s (when batman was campy, and superman was a huge dick), have always been pretty shitty with huge flaws readers had to put up with.

So, maybe in that sense comics suck now, but there is so much more out there. Marvel and DC are mostly to blame, but even they are starting to understand superhero comics are dying as they have been putting out some solid stuff recently (Strange Tales, Wizard of Oz, Fables, etc).

I got into comics within the past few years, and I have to admit that I have never been very fond of D.C. or Marvel. It almost feels blasphemous to even admit it, but it's true. It's not just American or even big name comics that have been slipping, in my opinion.

Take for example the Scott Pilgrim series. It's not the best storyline ever, but it's pretty decent at first. It started off pretty basic, and then after the first two or three volumes, the fandom grew and grew. Now, it seems like every other line is a cheesy video game or pop culture joke. The last volume itself was pretty weak ended, and the whole mystery of "Where's Ramona" was solved with the simplistic line, paraphrased, "I was on a wilderness sabbatical with my dad up north." Seriously. It was made into the movie, and it exploded from there. It's odd though hearing that half of the fandom didn't even know it was a comic first. :/

The most entertaining comic, that I've read since my ventures into nineties Batman issues, is probably The Umbrella Academy. It's from that guy from My Chemical Romance, but don't knock it for that. The guy actually has some pretty good ideas. It's about a team of superheroes who were adopted by a space alien to create a team, but it mostly takes place when they're in their thirties.

However, most of the Dark Horse comics have been disappointing to me lately. The short series and whatnot continuing Buffy have turned into the usual soap opera fanfare. They've also done a few comic versions of films, and that's a bit unnerving as far as comics go.

I'll stick to old school Batman, the original Crow, and whatever few independents seem to jump every now and then.

Apologies for being away from the forum for so long. I've actually had something of a social life this weekend (which feels totally weird).




I don't think it's blasphemous at all to admit that. In my opinion, there are no sacred cows that are exempt from becoming ground beef.

Marvel and DC... *sigh* They had good ideas, given the time frame they were working in. Unfortunately, I think Top Dollar's soliloquy on ideas becoming institutions from The Crow fits really well when discussing the Big Two.



Superman? Great idea! Who hasn't wanted to fly? To swoop in when shots are fired and let the bullets harmlessly ricochet off of your chest instead of hitting their intended targets? To dive in from the skies like a wrathful god, your eyes spewing fire into the midst of those committing harmful, evil, violent acts against others? To be faster-than-fast and have the power to save hundreds at once? Batman? Hell, Christopher Nolan has shown us the staying power of that idea. Spider-Man? A novel concept, when Stan Lee came up with him back in the 1960s. A realistic teenager with average guy problems suddenly given super-powers... Can any of us say we wouldn't have done what Pete did at first and use our abilities to score some quick cash? Or try to do penance for our mistakes by helping others?

These were damn good ideas when they first came out. The problem is that they've been done to death. How old is Superman? A little over 78 now? (He came out in 1932, right?) Batman? About 71. He hit the newsstands in Amazing Fantasy #15 back in '62; that makes him, oh, 48-ish. These are good ideas, but they can't be updated that much or the publishers risk losing their old, "tried-and-true" customers (like Marvel did when they wiped Spidey's marriage from history). You don't update them at all and you lose any new customers. (Marvel at least learned that much; a couple of years back, they updated Iron Man's origin for more modern times, moving the forging of his first suit of armor from the Cold War up to the Gulf War. Gotta give 'em credit where it's due, 'cause the good Lord knows they need it.) It's a balancing act, one I think the (rather juvenile) writers and editors at both DC and Marvel just aren't very good at anymore.



I didn't until I looked it up on Wikipedia. (Still haven't seen the film yet, though.) Doesn't surprise me, really. Endings are tough to manage, and they have to be good or it can ruin the entire story. Sadly, most writers - even some of the veterans out there - just aren't that great at writing endings anymore.



Downloaded it, still haven't read it yet. Hoping to have time to this year.



Depends on the film and what the comic does with it. I used to practically worship their Star Wars line until they cancelled Star Wars Tales and closed out both the Knights of the Old Republic and Legacy series. Around that time, they slowly pushed all their comics toward the movie timeline. Now every comic they do is either about the Clone Wars, the brief amount of time in between Episode III and Episode IV and the couple of years in between Episode IV and Episode V. I'm sick of seeing shit set in those time frames. After Legacy got cancelled, I stopped reading the Star Wars books altogether. The comics they've done based on Joss Whedon's Serenity, though, have been exceptional (probably because they were written either by Whedon himself or by his brother), and I hope they remain that way.

Movie-based comics are always an iffy concept, and there is so much potential to lose money there. (Unless you're the writer or author, that is. By the time the publishers have lost money on some stupid comic they shouldn't have done, you've already cashed a few paychecks.) For every three or five bad ones, though, there's one good one, and it's those few good ones that keep those movie tie-ins rolling off the presses.



You do know that The Author's Edition of The Crow is being worked on by O'Barr as we speak, yes?

When you say "old school Batman", you mean the 1990s Bats? Have you read anything past the Hush storyline, by any chance? Any of Morrison's recent works?




Not always. There have been some amazing stories from the superhero arena. Miller's The Dark Knight Returns leaps to mind (pun intended). Or his Batman: Year One. The Death of Superman had its flaws, but the concept (and some of the story) was solid. For DC's first real foray into political stories since the Hitler-punching Superman of the 1930s, Batman: A Death in the Family was an interesting bit of work. Given that it began as a cheap marketing gimmick tied to the aforementioned Death of Superman, Knightfall was a grueling, wearying ordeal of a story where you felt every drop of Bruce Wayne's blood as if it were your own. The decimation of Gotham itself shown in [i]Contagion, Legacy, Cataclysm and No Man's Land was (literally and story-wise) ground-breaking stuff, and Hush, War Games and Face the Face are among my favorite stories ever written in comics. The Venom saga was pretty good, and Maximum Carnage was an all-time favorite when I was a kid. Demon in a Bottle was probably among the best Iron Man stories ever told (if not the best), and the X-Men have had a slew of awesome stories, beginning with The Dark Phoenix Saga (though I think Jean Grey should've stayed dead) in 1976-1977, 1981's Days of Future Past, God Loves, Man Kills (which was loosely adapted into the film "X2"), X-Cutioner's Song, Fatal Attractions, The Phalanx Covenant (though the Phalanx quickly devolved into Marvel's version of the Borg soon after) and the Age of Apocalypse, which rocked my world when I was in junior high. (Notice how many of those stories were Batman stories? See what happens when you hire good writers and give 'em free reign to do whatever the hell they bloody well feel like?)

Sure, some of the stories could get a little preachy or soap opera-like at times (far too often, if Stan Lee was writing them). When they were good, though, they were damn good. Some of them were epic, galaxy-spanning sagas worthy of mythology; others were just gritty, hard-boiled looks at what it would be like to be some nutjob in a costume fighting crime in the inner city, in way over your head as you wade through criminals who want to see you dead for screwing up a drug deal or because your "secret identity" wasn't damn near as secret as you thought and they had a major grudge against you years ago. In the majority of those stories, the heroes won. (I wouldn't necessarily consider The Dark Phoenix Saga - y'know, the one where Jean Grey went all evil? - or Knightfall - Batman gets his back broken by a steroid-pumped psychopath and hands the cape and cowl over to someone he really shouldn't have chosen as a successor - as "wins" for the heroes.) We knew that would happen; we just wanted to see how they won. (What's that old adage about the journey being more important than the destination? Key quote to remember when writing comics for one of the Big Two publishers in American comics.)

My beef is that those great stories are too few and far between anymore. Sure, the new ones are done as marketing gimmicks. If it's written well, I don't give half a damn if that's the case or not. I can guarantee that all the stories I mentioned above were done as marketing gimmicks. What gets on my nerves is when the story isn't as important to the publisher as the dollar, when outcomes are decided by editorial mandate long before the story is allowed to grow from the minds of the writers and when writers and artists are boxed in by their lack of experience, their own juvenile misconceptions of what makes a story an "adult" story (in a medium that adults still consider "for kids" and that many teenagers no longer see as worthwhile entertainment) and by increasing demand from editors for more and more industry-wide crossovers that serve as little more than paper advertisements for the latest line of superhero toys.



Dying, you say? I doubt it! Marvel was bought out by Disney. Disney doesn't waste good ca$h like that on a franchise that publishes literature based on a concept the publishers believe is dying. Declining sales? Sure! Again, hire better writers! (I never say "hire better artists". Comic art these days is flawless; what I worry about is what goes into the word balloons.) There are superhero comics that are selling well because they hire good talent to tell the stories and the editors let the writers and artists actually tell the stories they want to tell. Most of these are indie comics.

As for the non-hero stuff - Strange Tales (nice to see that book back on the shelves), Wizard of Oz, Fables (which has been around for, what, eight years now?), The Dark Tower, et cetera ad infinitum - that's just good business sense. It's not like superhero comics have been the only comics that were ever published. For example, Strange Tales dates back to 1951, and one of those early stories featured a young soldier named Nick Fury. Look all throughout the history of comics, including the heyday of modern comics (1980s-1990s). There have always been comics based on movies (I remember owning the Willow adaptation as a kid), comics based on popular literature/television shows ( there was even a series based on William Shatner's TekWar at one time) and even comics based on religious stories and parables! (The mid-1990s gave us Marvel's version of Jesus in The Greatest Story Ever Told and their comic adaptation of The Screwtape Letters, which introduced me to the writings of C.S. Lewis.)

The sale of superhero comics rises and falls, just like everything else does. When superhero comic sales falter - usually because of external factors (curse you, Frederic Wertham!!) or internal ones (like DC's constant, shameless whoring out of all their top-selling characters; market oversaturation of Superman and Batman and poor story content probably helped lead to the slight decline of comics at the end of the Golden Age, for example). When superhero comics falter, the publishers crank out the horror comics, war comics, sci fi or fantasy comics, anything that will sell. (Notice all the zombie comics flooding the market right now? The Walking Dead, Marvel Zombies... How about some of the other horror comics out there now? The gazillion 30 Days of Night spin-offs?)

When I first wrote this post, I admit, my stated opinion was a little too reactionary and based on nostalgia. I had been reading about some of my old childhood favorites - the usual suspects: Superman, Batman, Iron Man, the Hulk, the X-Men, Spider-Man (I keep checking his Wikipedia page now and then, hoping for an announcement that Joe Quesada has come to his senses...) - and downloading a few comics that interested me (indie usually, though I did grab the entire run of Star Wars: Legacy recently, as well as all six issues of The X-Files/30 Days of Night crossover, which I can't say enough great things about), which got me thinking about the state of mainstream comics as a whole.

The stories just aren't that good anymore. Everything has gone to crass consumerism once again. I realize this is a trend in comics that will never go away (as it seems to be a trend in everything else as well), but it just bugs me. When I first got into comics, the focus wasn't on "how long can we keep this idea going to make a buck?" as much as it was on "how long can we keep really great stories people want to read in publication so we can make a buck?". I'm all for making money, so that's not my issue at all. It's when the drive for profit overtakes the drive to put out an excellent product because your name is in the credits and you actually have some measure of professional pride that things tend to go bad, and things have been going bad for a while, it seems.

I'd love to say that the current trend is just part of the up-swing/down-swing of comics, or that the trend can easily be solved with new management. I heard recently that Joe Quesada - a man I have made a personal target for all of my ire - stepped down as Marvel's editor-in-chief and handed things over to Alex Alonso. Thing is, Alonso is more "controversial" (I hate seeing that buzz word bandied about, because it usually means "profit over product") and stand-offish than Quesada ever was. Moreover, he's a good friend of Quesada's. Chances are, this is merely a cosmetic change in leadership. While important things like "good storytelling", "a plot that isn't as convoluted as a Senate hearing" and "reader appreciation" seem to be going the way of the dinosaur in mainstream comics, profits are up at the Big Two, so I don't see change coming any time soon, not until people start abandoning DC and Marvel en masse as they should.

I can't agree that superhero comics are dying. On the contrary; they are flourishing. If the Big Two keep going the way they are going, however, they will be the ones declining as readers flock elsewhere.




From what I've seen of Judge Dredd, that comic has been improving in leaps and bounds. It would be nice for American comic publishers to take notice of how the Brits do things (like they did for a time during the 1990s).

I'd heard the Dredd writers actually had Dredd taking a stand for mutant citizens of Megacity One in recent issues?




Not all. There are still some good indie comics out there. There really should be more graphic novels out there, though, like Spiegelman's Maus, but amazing works like that have always been few and far between.




Rinse, lather, repeat! You're right, it's how the industry is going! It's damn sad, if you ask me.

I think a good indicator of how everything has been going for a while now - in both industries (as comics and film are tied together more and more by similar/the same writing teams/companies that own both comic and film production groups) - was the intensely convoluted, highly controversial Spider-Clone Saga that Marvel ran from 1994 to 1996. I've studied that storyline off and on, as it was one of the most massive Spider-Man stories (outside of the aforementioned Maximum Carnage) that came out around the time I was getting interested in the character. I began studying it as a perfect example of "how to thoroughly fuck up an interesting story", but the more I studied it, the more it seems like a perfect example of what you just said: "sell more, forget the fanbase, get as many ''buyers'' as possible".




Any way I can edit that?




True that. I've been taking a long, hard look at IDW's products lately, and I'm really satisfied by what I've found there. Been snooping around Google and a few random blogs, too, hunting for things like "Top 10 Indie Comics" or "25 Things Every Comics Collection Truly Needs To Be Awesome", and I've found some interesting gems that way.

(Regarding #25 on that second URL... I've actually found and read a TPB of the Anita Blake vampire comic series from Marvel that the blogger links to as an example of "something that you absolutely hate". I'm sure the book series it's based on is great, but the comic series continually borders on the absolutely terrible. It's no surprise to me that the trade paperback in question suddenly disappeared from our public library only days after I returned it.)




"I have no opinion/I couldn't care less" works for me. *shrugs* If I could edit that post, I'd add in your option.




You're absolutely right; horrible, horrible comic stories have, in the past, motivated positive change that led to something truly great later on down the line. The absolutely fucked-up, nigh-surrealist stories of the Golden Age of comics (circa mid-1930s to early 1950s) yielded to the more "naturalistic" (as naturalistic as superhero comics can get, anyway), grounded heroes of Marvel Comics during the Silver Age (1956-1970s); when the Silver Age stories started to suck, along came some of the darker, more mature stories of the Bronze Age, such as "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" and the classic "Iron Man gets plastered" story "Demon in a Bottle" (1970-1985); when those began to get stale, along came the Modern Age with The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen (1985-present).

Now, we're (arguably) coming to the end of the Modern Age (if we haven't already entered the Post-Modern Age, that is). Again the stories are getting stale. The problem is that the publishers refuse to see it because they're making so much money that they are no longer concerned with how good the stories are, as long as people are buying them. A story can be "controversial" and be considered "good" if it sells, not if the writers are putting out quality (and the saddest thing of all is seeing the Big Two hire some top-notch writers to dole out their shit). Sadly, this trend looks like it will continue for the foreseeable future.

When you say...



...I cannot help but agree with you. I guess I'm just worried for rather silly, nostalgic reasons. I see good things ahead for independent publishers, just not for DC and Marvel necessarily. The nostalgic kid in me is saddened by this, of course, but if the Big Two come to an end some day because of their own policies, I suppose it's their time.




I wouldn't consider reading actual books instead of comics any kind of shame.


Good God... I apologize for my long-windedness!

I still haven't checked, I discovered they compiled all the old Dredd comics into about 20 volumes, I'm thinking I might get them before wading into the new stuff.


There actually are no mutants in Mega City One, all mutants are denied citizenship and forced to live in Cursed Earth, any mutants found inside MC1's walls are criminals by default and treated as such, with the Judges brand of swift Justice
On the few times Dredd has been in Cursed Earth though, he has always treated them fairly as long as they didn't cross him.



[Edit]Oops, my bad, a quick google reveals that a story arc started in 2007 had Dredd demanding those laws be repealed.
I really need to catch up on the story

By old school Batman, I do mean mostly 80s/90s story lines. I have read the more recent Grant Morrison, mostly in the collected book editions. I have a slight affection for the Batman and Son story, to be honest.

As for the Crow: Author's Edition, I'm ecstatic. The Crow and Batman are the two comic series that ever actually meant something to me.

Ah, a woman after my own heart! I loved those storylines myself; anything after The Dark Knight Returns was an instant hit, if you ask me. Other comic writers on other books may have put out the occasional garbage, but the Batman writers have always been spinning straw into gold.

As for Batman & Son... I admit I wasn't happy about the project at first. It - and Wolverine's bastard son Daken, for that matter - came after Superman Returns came out, and I saw Batman & Son as a horrible attempt to cash in on that film's storyline. After reading it, though, I found myself enjoying it (though I still think Damien is a Scrappy waiting to happen).

Same for Batman R.I.P. and it's associated stories: Battle for the Cowl, the Batman & Robin series featuring Dick Grayson as the new Batman and (blech!) Damien as Robin, The Return of Bruce Wayne (though I still passionately assert that a merry jaunt through time while everyone else thinks he's dead is not a story befitting the "grim-and-gritty", realistic tone of modern Batman stories) and the first issues of Batman, Inc.. Not what I'd normally expect from the Batman books, but damn good reads nonetheless!




I definitely agree. Ever read the Image Comics version of the story published back in '99?

Just recently gotten into comics although my boyfriend has developed an obsession with batman. I thought that batman was meant to be the more gritty, realistic hero until I read the most recent Grant Morrison arc... time traveling batman bouncing around history? Apparently he got vaporised by some evil dude (dark seide or something along those lines) but that translates into not dead just faffing about in time... sigh I do try to like them, i really, do but sometimes i feel embarrassed even thinking about the sheer silliness of it all!

... At least when reading Thor if it's questionable logic is brought up I can simply say "Magic"