15lb weights in chest, Captain Nevarre has hit upon my point quite well.

LadyAttercop - i'd never thought of the communual aspect of the goth subculture, as a means of 'moral support' for those who self-harm.

I have never cut or anything, but when I was younger, some childhood issues had lead me to being suicidal. And actually, when I started dressing "goth", I felt better, knowing that these problems (mostly associated with being used by men), wouldn't be a burden to me anymore. And since that general time, I haven't had the same issues, so I haven't had the same problems.

But the "Marliyn is this, Marilyn is that..." argument, I personally don't respect Marilyn Manson, due to the fact I find him to be a HUGE poseur. But, the kids cutting is not exactly "glorified" by his music. If anything, it's the "Simple Plan"s and other pop-media bands. Hell, Papa Roach's famous "Last Resort" makes direct references to suicide. One thing that IS Marilyn Manson's fault, though, would be the "Satanist" imagery backing up every stereotypical "gothling". And Slipknot is guilty as charged for bastardizing the pentagram, Satanism, and the Ouija board. If you're going to pretend to be another "spooky" religion, at least KNOW which one you're going to pretend to be! I only know of one cutter neo-goth in my school, and he's into Cradle of Filth, Marilyn Manson and Rammstein. It's not because of the music, though. It's because he's looking for attention.

Thats all I have to say in my little rant!

Yeah...

Actually I think you're dead wrong about Manson and most of the other bands or "poseurs"... but the entire rant had nothing to do with this topic. So if you want to address it, go to PM. If you'd rather just let it lie, fine. But either way, let's stay on topic folks.

Captain Nevarre

That's how I feel. I also think that it could be the case that a number of self-harmers who aren't part of any kind of subculture will just be hiding the cuts/burns/whatever under their clothes which means they don't get as noticed much by people as those in subcultures do. At some of the clubs I've been to you see people who self-harm[ed] showing their cuts by wearing short sleeves or fishnets (note I'm not saying showing off just they're not hiding them). I'd expect it's a case of the social support thing, in mainstream society you might get asked more questions about things like injuries and cuts and people may be more intolerant or you may worry they will be in comparison to subcultures where it's perceived to be more normal (whether it is or not). I don't think it's a case of there being more self-harmers in subcultures than mainstream society, but more self-harmers who are visible.

I dont get wat u mean by "seeking attention". Hello, doesnt being goth have something to do with not caring wat other ppl think? The last thing I wanna do is draw attention to myself. Although it may seem that way with the black clothing and all (u could say that about almost all of us), that's just not the case. The reason I dress the way I do is because it makes me feel invisable. I really wish I were...

Oh for the love of Pete and Pete.

Sorrow's_Faith, before you proceed any further, please, please, please read TheRules&tm;; you've engaged in net speak, thread hijacking and attention whoring. All smart ways to a pipping. This thread isn't about your wishes of invisibility or interpretation of goth, it's about the presence of self-harm in the community. Like it or not, some individuals use self-inflicted injuries as a cry for help.

And here's a quick life lesson, if you're decked out in your gothy best, you don't want to be invisible. You are seeking attention/a reaction/a way to stand out. Any time you deviate from the norm, you're going to attract more attention, not less. If you truly want to be invisible, buy yourself a pair of khakis and a polo shirt. No one will look twice at you.

[Begin side note]
Well...I think it's rather simple. If people cut themselves in places where you can see it, they're probably going for attention. If you never see it (barring an unforseen accident) it's probably not an attention thing. Type of cutting would matter as well. Is it actually self-harm (cuts deep enough to scar) or is it simply shallow [non-scarring] (which could indicate one of two things: 1 - Desire for attention/plea for help or 2 - It's being done for the sensation, usually in conjunction with alcohol to increase the pain level).
[End side note]

While it is true that goths may be less likely to hide self-inflicted injuries than other subcultures, I would argue that there is a definite gravitation towards gothica for those who are most likely to injure themselves. (*Can't stand "self-harm" due to not really believing it's always harmful - It seems to me self-harm should specifically apply to mutilative activities, with permanent results (or at least more severe results)*) Those who think a lot about death and morbid subjects tend to go goth. They do not necessarily continue their preoccupation with these subects, but there is certainly a correlation.

I think it is most likely a fairly even combination of the two:
1. Goths are less likely to hide cuts.
2. People who cut are more likely to become goths (not because of the cutting, but because of the thoughts that generally provoke cutting).
and NOT 3. Goths are more likely to become cutters. [Regardless of emotional/mental status]

Although somewhere in their the social/subcultural support thing must come in, I suppose.

Neuffy -
So in effect, you are reiterating Grey Loki's sentiments that it's not goth that draws people to self-harm, but rather (often) self-harm which may draw people to the Gothic Subculture.

Am I understanding correctly?

Not precisely.

What I'm trying to say is that the same factors that lead individuals toward self-injury also have a tendency to lead towards the Gothic Subculture.

For example, those who feel rejected by their peers may be more likely to be depressed, which can lead to self-injury. Being rejected by one's peers also may lead one to simply look for a different peer group. In addition, depression and a fascination with morbidity and darker tones while not a necessity for Goths are factors that often lead one to become goth.

Basically,
Condition A --> Interests B --> Gothic
Condition A --> Depression --> self-injury

I'm attempting to say that it could be a cluster of conditions that lead to both the Gothic subculture and self-injury _separately_ rather than either of them being interconnected.

To summarize:
It's not goth that causes cutting.
It's not cutting that causes one to become goth.
There is something that results in both of these in a highly linked manner.

I'll propose that this something is, well, rather a lot. Fascination with death, the connotations of faded, tattered beauty, the impression that the gothic community is more accepting of those who self-injure, the correlation between depression and above, the _difference_ between what is considered normal and what a goth prefers, depression and its associated coping mechanisms, and probably a lot more that I can't think of right now.

[By the way, is there a way to justify on this board?]

Unless I'm completely missing the point of most of the posts made on this thread so far, the above is exactly what most of us have been saying.

Er...upon reflection...it certainly appears so. I really haven't been sure where I've been going, and I guess I just wasn't sure I'd end up the same place. I guess I did.

I'm not sure what you mean. The text is automatically left-justified. I'm sure there's manual tricks you can do to make your points stand out, but we'd rather you stuck with the standard text in most instances.

Not all people who cut in visible places are going for attention. A lot of people cut their forearms and hands simply because it's a fairly easy area to cut; those are also vunerable spots, so it's not that hard to convince people the injuries are accidental if you're not the attention seeking type.

Also, it's not a good idea to assume that shallow cuts aren't the same as deep ones. Some people start out with light cutting while they're building up the courage to go deeper. Being suicidal doesn't necessarily take away all fear of pain.

Well, as this thread is now well and truly hijacked....

First: By justify, I mean that the spacing is modified so that the left lines up nicely, as does the right (within a paragraph).

Second: Cutting is essentially unlinked to suicidal ideation. It has nothing to do with building up the courage to go deeper or being suicidal. At least, this is true in my experiences. This is not to discount the fact that those who are contemplating suicide by wrist-slitting do not hesitate or produce shallow cuts while working up to it.

And while I wouldn't normally mention it, I am completely unscarred, simply because I would never, ever cut deeply enough to scar. I can personally attest that I am at least one case in which shallow cutting was most certainly not going to lead to deeper cutting. And everybody I've known who did deeper cutting had more tendencies toward suicide, but that's really another matter, and one not really pertaining to this thread.

Actually, I think this thread may be sorta dead. Anyone who had something constructive to say and didn't/won't say it, I apologize.

That is why it's dangerous to assume that your experiences speak for every case out there. There's always another person with a totally different experience.

And that's why I hope that anyone involved with mental patients would take a study like this with a grain of salt.