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It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

'Tis sad but true, that the goth scene has A LOT of GothGeeks ... so we had to give them their own little playpen, lest they took over everywhere else!

Who was the better Captain?

 
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Lachrymose
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Re: It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

Postby Lachrymose » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:01 pm

Last post of the previous page :

All merely re-tellings of the Epics of Kirk....rehash for the youngsters. Classic stories shot-up with steroids. Feh!
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zoldos
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Re: It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

Postby zoldos » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:44 am

No one voted for Janeway or Archer LOL
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Re: It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

Postby Minnie d'Arc » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:06 am

It's a bit of a shame about no-one voting for Jonathan Archer. I think if Enterprise had had as long a run as TNG, DS9 or Voyager things might have been different. Some of the situations in which Archer found himself in the Expanse, and the resultant decisions, were hideously tough. He found solutions which even Kirk might have blanched at, in the name of a dream, an ideal, with no safety net of a Federation to fall back on.

He was a great captain.
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Re: It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

Postby dunebat » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:32 am

Lachrymose WroteColonAll merely re-tellings of the Epics of Kirk....rehash for the youngsters. Classic stories shot-up with steroids. Feh!


Do explain. How was "The Best and Both Worlds" a re-telling of a Kirk epic? Do give a point-by-point analysis, please.
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Lachrymose
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Re: It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

Postby Lachrymose » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:52 am

So they got one. Whooo-hoo look at us, we wrote one script...wee-hee hee.


Agent Bat WroteColon
Lachrymose WroteColonAll merely re-tellings of the Epics of Kirk....rehash for the youngsters. Classic stories shot-up with steroids. Feh!


Do explain. How was "The Best and Both Worlds" a re-telling of a Kirk epic? Do give a point-by-point analysis, please.
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Re: It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

Postby zoldos » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:58 am

Minnie d'Arc WroteColonIt's a bit of a shame about no-one voting for Jonathan Archer. I think if Enterprise had had as long a run as TNG, DS9 or Voyager things might have been different. Some of the situations in which Archer found himself in the Expanse, and the resultant decisions, were hideously tough. He found solutions which even Kirk might have blanched at, in the name of a dream, an ideal, with no safety net of a Federation to fall back on.

He was a great captain.

Maybe so, but IMO the show itself sucked except for the "temporal cold war" episodes.....
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Re: It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

Postby Minnie d'Arc » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:02 am

But we're voting on the captain, not the show... :wink: :lol:
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Re: It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

Postby dunebat » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:52 am

Lachrymose WroteColonSo they got one. Whooo-hoo look at us, we wrote one script...wee-hee hee.


Agent Bat WroteColon
Lachrymose WroteColonAll merely re-tellings of the Epics of Kirk....rehash for the youngsters. Classic stories shot-up with steroids. Feh!


Do explain. How was "The Best and Both Worlds" a re-telling of a Kirk epic? Do give a point-by-point analysis, please.


"The Best of Both Worlds" (2-parts). "Darmok". "Chain of Command" (2-parts). "The Inner Light". "I, Borg". "All Good Things..." "Star Trek: First Contact". And those were just the few I came up with off the top of my head.

Sure, the first two seasons of TNG were Kirk re-hashes. Then Season 3 hit. Yar died. The Borg were introduced. Roddenberry died and new blood took over the series. TNG came into its own. Then we had DS9, which was not a damn thing like Kirk's series. From Season 3 of TNG to Season 7 were four years of non-Kirk and non-Kirk-like stories. DS9 had seven years (minus "Trials and Tribble-ations", the anniversary episode). Since these overlapped, we'll say this was seven or eight years of stories not like Kirk at all.

Dude, seriously, claiming that everything Picard, Sisko, Janeway or Archer did were just re-hashes of Kirk is pure, unadulterated, damn-fool stubbornness. Go back and watch the series yourself to see what I mean.

Or, you could do as I asked and prove me wrong. Point-by-point. I dare you.


zoldos WroteColonNo one voted for Janeway or Archer LOL


Minnie d'Arc WroteColonIt's a bit of a shame about no-one voting for Jonathan Archer. I think if Enterprise had had as long a run as TNG, DS9 or Voyager things might have been different. Some of the situations in which Archer found himself in the Expanse, and the resultant decisions, were hideously tough. He found solutions which even Kirk might have blanched at, in the name of a dream, an ideal, with no safety net of a Federation to fall back on.

He was a great captain.


I agree with your first statements; Archer was unorthodox - in good ways and bad - and Enterprise probably would've been remembered as an awesome show, had they had more time to tell more stories and kept Manny Coto as the lead writer from then on, as was planned. I wouldn't say he was a "great" captain, though; that's a bit of a stretch, to me. Sure, Enterprise had some damn good episodes - "Damage", "Breaking the Ice" and "Regeneration" immediately spring to mind - but they also had a slew of stinkers during Seasons 1 and 2 - piss-poor episodes such as, say, "Acquisition" and "Dear Doctor", which (while hilarious, in "Acquisition's" case) were about as close to unintentional character assassination as a writer could get without pasting a "kick me" sign on the back of every Enterprise blue jumpsuit. Hell, Chuck Sonnenberg makes a damn good case that Archer (a.k.a. "Dutchess") is really a street-crazy Starfleet hired last-minute because their new starship desperately needed a commanding officer ASAP. (I realize that isn't the truth - Archer had been working on the Warp 5 engine since his father first thought it up - but damn, if Sonnenberg isn't persuasive...)

Please don't misunderstand me! It isn't Archer! It's the writers (specifically the show-runners, Rick Berman & Brannon Braga)! They wrote Archer - hell, they wrote all the Enterprise characters this way (example: here's Phlox's character assassination)! - as morons and hypocrites (for example: compare Archer's decision in "Fortunate Son" to his decision in "Silent Enemy"), when they weren't just writing outright awful episodes (again, "Acquisition") or outright offensive episodes (like "Unexpected", which starts with the interesting idea of a pregnant male, quickly slid into a horrible episode where [spoiler]somebody fucking rapes "Trip" and it's played off for laughs[/spoiler]). Sure, there were occasional good episodes - once again, I point to "Regeneration" (which was a damn good sequel to "Star Trek: First Contact". The series really didn't get better until the war stories from Season 3 (beginning with "Anzati Prime", which were inspired by the superb handling of the Dominion War from Deep Space Nine, though - like GWB - they rushed into that story without an exit strategy and had to leave the ending up to poor Manny Coto to deal with before he could get to writing his brilliant episodes), and hiring Manny Coto as the series' new lead writer for Season 4 only improved the series moreso.


zoldos WroteColonMaybe so, but IMO the show itself sucked except for the "temporal cold war" episodes.....


Exactly. Before "Anzati Prime", Enterprise was absolutely horrible. After "Anzati Prime", though, the series got much better. It's too bad most of the viewers left after the first two seasons; modern Trek series usually take two seasons to really get going, but I think all the hype about Enterprise being "new and improved!" from the get-go, then disappointing Trekkies by not being so just left too many feeling jaded toward the franchise as a whole.


Minnie d'Arc WroteColonBut we're voting on the captain, not the show... :wink: :lol:


Ah, but can we, given how the series and their starring captains are so intrinsically tied? :D
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--------------------------------------------------------
Goth name: Baradon Icejette (courtesy Nephele).

I have a website where I press words.
I also book face.
I'm all a-twitter.
And I tumble.
Plus, I'm a deviant! ;)
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Lachrymose
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Re: It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

Postby Lachrymose » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:34 pm

Agent Bat WroteColonDude, seriously, claiming that everything Picard, Sisko, Janeway or Archer did were just re-hashes of Kirk is pure, unadulterated, damn-fool stubbornness. Go back and watch the series yourself to see what I mean.


Got ya.....;) Sorry man, I just couldn't resist doing a Finnegan on ya!


I would happily serve under either of them.


Live long and eat chocolate mini eggs!
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zoldos
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Re: It's Time for Jihad! [Star Trek-related]

Postby zoldos » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:21 pm

I admit, I watched Enterprise until the second season premiere. But that episode was very disappointing. The whole future is all fucked up, and the best thing they can come up with is that future guy makes some device he learned how to do in kindergarden and bam, everything is fixed. blah hehehehe
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