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becoming discouraged... - man people get pummeled here...

For discussion about the future of GOTH.NET.

This discussion should now take place in the GOTH.NET forum.
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Postby battle cries » Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:41 am

why is it that every post I open, 9 times outta ten someone is gettin bashed for what they had to say/ or because the topic has already been discussed ... this hasn't happened to me personally (yet) but I think It's because I'm afraid of recieveing the same treatment... you know a lot of new comers leave cos they see this, and often times I refrain from posting for this reason... A lot of people don't know that you can seach through the old posts, and I've noticed that when I do, a lot of what I'm looking for I either don't find (even if I was directed to look for it), or its so outdated... or the people that posted in it don't even post anymore. I can understand going after people who are obscure with their questions, or rude in some way, but opinions are just that...
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Postby blood_rose » Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:58 am

battle cries WroteColonwhy is it that every post I open, 9 times outta ten someone is gettin bashed for what they had to say/ or because the topic has already been discussed ... this hasn't happened to me personally (yet) but I think It's because I'm afraid of recieveing the same treatment... you know a lot of new comers leave cos they see this, and often times I refrain from posting for this reason... A lot of people don't know that you can seach through the old posts, and I've noticed that when I do, a lot of what I'm looking for I either don't find (even if I was directed to look for it), or its so outdated... or the people that posted in it don't even post anymore. I can understand going after people who are obscure with their questions, or rude in some way, but opinions are just that...

hi. I'm Rose, a mod here

Thought I'd clarify why we do the things we do. :)
Unfortunately you happened to log onto goth.net at a time when we are being visited by a high number of trolls. I think it's because all the halloween crap is selling in the stores and the kiddies think they're more gothy now, but that's not the point. :D

Now when people here get bashed, it's because of four reasons:
1. they posted a topic that was already stated/alluded to/beated to death long ago.
2. they are being rude to mods/ rude to posters/ starting threads that are meant to be purely shocking or disgusting.
3. they are posting because they are bored and tell us in their posts how bored they are.
4. Their grammar is so atrocious that people here have to decode what they're saying. There are people here from different countries who can hardly understand English. Spelling errors are ok, but leaving out all full stops and not capitalising anything is bad because some people here have a hard time translating.



The threads we close are either related to topics we've already discussed, or are placed in the wrong forum, or have been taken over by trolls. Yes, some threads are outdated, but it doesn't invalidate the things that are said. One day me Mes and Lil will get around to making an FAQ so that people won't post the same questions over again.
We have a search button at the top, and we try and refer to it as much as we can. But sometimes, a lot of posters will go into the General Discussion area and put up a new topic without even bothering to read the topic headings on any forum or the posts contained there in.

If you just parce through a few pages in a forum you are thinking of posting a topic in, thenyou should be fine. People who take the time to look for things they are curious about usually find it in our back logs and don't even need to post their question.
It might not be the exact same question, but it is related to the topic a person would post about.


I hope this clarifies, and in the future, don't be scared to post, or to ask for help because the mods and admins here are ready and willing to give it, always. :)




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Postby Lilith » Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:19 am

blood_rose WroteColonOne day me Mes and Lil will get around to making an FAQ so that people won't post the same questions over again.

Yeah, I need to finish making that page and put it up.

/div WroteColonWe have a search button at the top, and we try and refer to it as much as we can. But sometimes, a lot of posters will go into the General Discussion area and put up a new topic without even bothering to read the topic headings on any forum or the posts contained there in.


I think this happens in most cases.

Also, I've just noticed that many people don't really look around the board to make themselves familiar with the 'physical' layout of the place, seeing what buttons or options are availible to them etc. This is aside from familiarising themselves with the posters on the board just by observing for a while.

As Rose pointed out, the current slew of posts in which people were 'bashed' are more exception than the rule. The board has been up since February, in that time I've only banned about 4 or 5 people, and fewer than 10 people have had warnings. This is over a total of 650 current registered users, (and I've been culling out those that signed up and never posted within a 3 month period since it's inception) and with 18,000 posts on the board.

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Postby battle cries » Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:12 pm

battle cries WroteColonopinions are just that...

1. they posted a topic that was already stated/alluded to/beated to death long ago.

A lot of the people who posted those things long ago are gone... if a topic has been beaten to death, you may see it that way b/c youre a monitor- some people haven't been here very long and do not know that the topic is 'beat' I believe honestly that no topic is beat. If someone wants to talk about it they should be allowed to do so... within reason....

2. they are being rude to mods/ rude to posters/ starting threads that are meant to be purely shocking or disgusting.

I have a bunch of other forums online that I post in, and I've never seen such bashing...maybe some kind reminders of the search button or a quick link to the topic (if the old post is STILL AVAILABLE)

I've seen post-ers get into it once in a while, but when the moderators and super-whoevers get in on it it makes me feel like they don't care about the feelings of their members... I know if I got bashed by a moderator I would feel pretty pissed off... you guys are here to keep things on a nice note, and to ensure a good time can be had on the boards right?
Now I also understand when a moderator gets bashed that they want to retaliate, but I see you guys telling people not to care what others think....

shocking disgusting? well, a lot of non goths believe that a lot of the things we are interested in are just that....
As a personal advocate of BsDm I deal with people who see me leaving a local club and ask me WHF is wrong with me or yell that I am sick and twisted... personally I don't care about it. If it bothered me, I don't think I'd be interested in it you know? I don't let others opinions get in my way and I think that carries with most of the people here...

3. they are posting because they are bored and tell us in their posts how bored they are.

this I understand... if they look among the posts here, I'm sure they'll find something to do... maybe a post on suggestions to cure current boredom is in order?

Speaking in legible tearms I also understand... that should go without saying... forums are the best way for people from different countries to get in touch online because of the time differences... people gotta make things understandable to all... and if they ask a question and leave it vague, expect requests for clarification...
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Postby dark shadow » Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:42 pm

battle cries WroteColon
battle cries WroteColonopinions are just that...

1. they posted a topic that was already stated/alluded to/beated to death long ago.

A lot of the people who posted those things long ago are gone... if a topic has been beaten to death, you may see it that way b/c youre a monitor- some people haven't been here very long and do not know that the topic is 'beat' I believe honestly that no topic is beat. If someone wants to talk about it they should be allowed to do so... within reason....

2. they are being rude to mods/ rude to posters/ starting threads that are meant to be purely shocking or disgusting.

I have a bunch of other forums online that I post in, and I've never seen such bashing...maybe some kind reminders of the search button or a quick link to the topic (if the old post is STILL AVAILABLE)

I've seen post-ers get into it once in a while, but when the moderators and super-whoevers get in on it it makes me feel like they don't care about the feelings of their members... I know if I got bashed by a moderator I would feel pretty pissed off... you guys are here to keep things on a nice note, and to ensure a good time can be had on the boards right?
Now I also understand when a moderator gets bashed that they want to retaliate, but I see you guys telling people not to care what others think....

shocking disgusting? well, a lot of non goths believe that a lot of the things we are interested in are just that....
As a personal advocate of BsDm I deal with people who see me leaving a local club and ask me WHF is wrong with me or yell that I am sick and twisted... personally I don't care about it. If it bothered me, I don't think I'd be interested in it you know? I don't let others opinions get in my way and I think that carries with most of the people here...

battle cries: i understand what you are saying and have definately felt the same in some cases.


but i think that people have to familiarise themselves not only with the board but, in some ways, the people as well. i think that people like Blood Rose and Lilith, they are the moderators and that is how they moderate so if people find themselves feeling unwelcome or they don't like the board then they can go find somewhere better suited to them.

i think some postings do deserve the 'bashing' they get and it (usually) helps maintain a quality of discussion that i personally have never found in many other forums.

i agree that any topic should be open for discussion but what is the point of the same things being said over and over? just becuase they are being said by different people who have visited the board more recently, doesn't mean the content changes. if someone has a new perspective, yeah, great. and i can't see them getting 'bashed' for that.


/div WroteColonNow I also understand when a moderator gets bashed that they want to retaliate, but I see you guys telling people not to care what others think....


i think that you can not care what a person thinks at the same time as being really irritated by what they are saying. i also think that respect is important ........ urgh. X) i don't know how to put it. i'll come back to respect later if i can sort it in my head.

/div WroteColonleaving out all full stops and not
capitalising anything is bad because some people here have a hard time translating.


Oh. Whoops. That makes sense and I never capitalise!!! :b

....

* * Yeah I think that is all I have to say. And despite the fact that I am giving a view that opposes most of your arguments .... I am VERY glad that you bought this up and didn't refrain from posting this post. I think it is good that these issues and feelings towards situations and stuff have been put forward so people are aware and if they consider it called for, changes can be made.


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Postby 66-1017890041 » Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:31 pm

Though i feel there is some merit to this criticism (and we should always be open to criticism) i have to say that within the first two months of contributing to this forum that i had my fill of pointless threads, inflamatory statements, stupid questions, and otherwise tedious juvenile behavior.

In fact, i tend to be a little more tolerant of this than the moderators because i know that juvenile behavior is the product of juveniles - that is, kids that just don't know any better, yet. Of course, as moderators Mesdames Lilith et al have every right to shape the constituancy of the board.

As for people leaving the board, what can i say? Adolescents have short attention spans.

/div WroteColonshocking disgusting? well, a lot of non goths believe that a lot of the things we are interested in are just that....
But part of the point is that we as goths (or whatever) are trying to mind our own business and just want to be left alone. Posting to a thread implies that you're putting something out there to be seen, at least in as far as you expect the post to be read. On this forum 'shocking and disgusting' includes exaltation at schoolyard massacres and flogging otherwise hateful opinions. It's one thing to be different, it's another to be obnoxious, misogynist, fascist, evangelical, or otherwise hateful.

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Postby Lilith » Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:51 pm

dark shadow WroteColonbut i think that people have to familiarise themselves not only with the board but, in some ways, the people as well. i think that people like Blood Rose and Lilith, they are the moderators and that is how they moderate so if people find themselves feeling unwelcome or they don't like the board then they can go find somewhere better suited to them.

Speaking for my own actions...

Generally I do try to make posters feel welcome, I generally welcome people to the board on their initial posts etc. and I don't run around being nasty to everybody just because I can. In general I think I can say that this applies to most of the mods here.

/div WroteColoni think some postings do deserve the 'bashing' they get and it (usually) helps maintain a quality of discussion that i personally have never found in many other forums.


I'm glad you approve of the quality of discussion that happens here. And yes, steering people away from the repetitive "what is goth? am I goth?" questions has helped. I'd like to add that we don't "bash" everyone who comes in here asking a repetitive question, but these are of course the things that people notice more than the posts in which people get friendly nudges towards Search buttons, Links pages etc.

/div WroteColoni agree that any topic should be open for discussion but what is the point of the same things being said over and over? just becuase they are being said by different people who have visited the board more recently, doesn't mean the content changes. if someone has a new perspective, yeah, great. and i can't see them getting 'bashed' for that.


Correct.

/div WroteColon
/div WroteColonNow I also understand when a moderator gets bashed that they want to retaliate, but I see you guys telling people not to care what others think....


i think that you can not care what a person thinks at the same time as being really irritated by what they are saying. i also think that respect is important ........ urgh. X) i don't know how to put it. i'll come back to respect later if i can sort it in my head.


Thanks dark shadow for hitting that one on the head.

Generally, when someone comes here and starts insulting people on the board, which generally happens upon little or no provocation, I will comment back. More than once have I seriously toned down my responses to certain people in order to maintain *some* level of civility... see the thread 'goths??' that ignorantpunk started in the Gothic section for an example. This thread also is an example of me being patient to the point of wanting to headbutt my monitor repeatedly, and also of other forum members being helpful and chipping in in regards to a topic that has also been covered often.

In the more recent case of uvpurple, we have someone who might have met with several terse reactions from various members and mods in regards to spelling, grammar etc. (incidentally he managed flawless spelling and grammar on an email application to which he added a lengthy comment, so dyslexia obviously didn't affect him that day), but whose reactions were completely out of proportion to what was said to him. "Screw you hippy!" is not exactly a reaction one expects, nor deserves, when one is pointing out that technically cybergoth is a clothing style and EBM is the name for the music style they were describing. In these cases, if you are a rude arsehole, expect to be treated as such by others. I might be an admin here, but I'm also just human as well... and one of the few rules I have on this board is that people try and remain civil, respectful and not stoop to personal insults. But, if you start with the insults, I'm not going to turn the other cheek either. The point is that even when normal responses and benign opinions were given, both he (and later his 'friend' para()x_kat) were unnecessarily hostile and defensive. After telling everyone to get fucked and just deal with your horrendous spelling and then trying later to backpeddle and say you have dyslexia is obviously not going to win you any sympathy votes anymore. People here are generally friendly... if you have problems like a reading disability or dyslexia or even if your English sucks because you're foreign, people will be sympathetic towards this if you mention up front why your posts might be somewhat incomprehensible.

It's easy to paint the mods as the bad guys sometimes, as they're the only ones who really have the power to enforce actions on the board, but generally people are friendly or at least civil, and "bashing" is mostly reserved for those people that just don't have a clue. More often than not there's some (mild) berating rather than all out bashing or flaming.

And for those of you who think this board is tough, you've obviously never spent time on Usenet. We wear kid gloves in comparison to newsgroups on there.

/div WroteColon* * Yeah I think that is all I have to say. And despite the fact that I am giving a view that opposes most of your arguments .... I am VERY glad that you bought this up and didn't refrain from posting this post. I think it is good that these issues and feelings towards situations and stuff have been put forward so people are aware and if they consider it called for, changes can be made.


Contrary to the comments of para()x_kat, we don't run around banning everyone who disagrees with us. One need only look at the postings of ShadowCrow on this board, and even Malice has her controversial posts. ShadowCrow has also kind of found his niche here, and is generally also a good contributor to discussions here, even if many of us disagree with his personal beliefs.

Sorry for this rather long explanation, but I felt there were various issues that needed touching upon from an Admin's point of view as well.

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Postby Lilith » Mon Sep 30, 2002 8:02 pm

BambooSplinter WroteColonThough i feel there is some merit to this criticism (and we should always be open to criticism)

The criticism is duly noticed, and being evaluated.

/div WroteColon
/div WroteColonshocking disgusting? well, a lot of non goths believe that a lot of the things we are interested in are just that....

On this forum 'shocking and disgusting' includes exaltation at schoolyard massacres and flogging otherwise hateful opinions. It's one thing to be different, it's another to be obnoxious, misogynist, fascist, evangelical, or otherwise hateful.


The one post that I've removed from this board that I deemed truly disgusting, and nobody else got to read it as I managed to delete it pretty much as soon as it was posted, was a classified ad in which some older guy was looking for young virgins with whom he could induldge in 'candy sex' and assorted other unpleasant things. By unpleasant things I'm not referring to BDSM or it's ilk, or anything that 'normal' people would consider unpleasant. The entire post was really gross, seedy and predatory in nature.

Other posts that are considered within the realm of 'shocking and disgusting' have mainly consisted of things that BambooSplinter mentioned.

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Postby NemesisHunter » Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:24 pm

Lilith WroteColon
/div WroteColonWe have a search button at the top, and we try and refer to it as much as we can. But sometimes, a lot of posters will go into the General Discussion area and put up a new topic without even bothering to read the topic headings on any forum or the posts contained there in.


I think this happens in most cases.

Also, I've just noticed that many people don't really look around the board to make themselves familiar with the 'physical' layout of the place, seeing what buttons or options are availible to them etc. This is aside from familiarising themselves with the posters on the board just by observing for a while.

I think i asked this somewhere else but i lost that thread. Isn't there some way to just have a pop-up type screen that tells the new people the layout or that there is a search button or other little nuisences that you 3 deal with on a daily basis. Just a thought
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Postby dark shadow » Tue Oct 01, 2002 1:59 am

Lilith WroteColonGenerally I do try to make posters feel welcome, I generally welcome people to the board on their initial posts etc. and I don't run around being nasty to everybody just because I can. In general I think I can say that this applies to most of the mods here.

I know.
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Postby Lilith » Tue Oct 01, 2002 2:42 am

NemesisHunter WroteColonI think i asked this somewhere else but i lost that thread. Isn't there some way to just have a pop-up type screen that tells the new people the layout or that there is a search button or other little nuisences that you 3 deal with on a daily basis. Just a thought

Pop-ups wouldn't work, most peoples' instincts are to click and close them, plus they'd annoy all the regular/frequent users.

Eventually I'll put a link to the FAQ (in which I'll cover the search button and quoting option etc.) in the email that gets sent when people sign up, and also link it on the Forums and site themselves.

However, I'm not sure how effective this is... it's hard enough to get people to read the initial sign-up email. Even after I changed the initial sign-up email, I had to go to pretty drastic measures to actually get them to *read* the part that says "this email has been sent to verify your email address and does not mean that your account has been approved. It will be approved by a moderator soon" so that I wouldn't keep getting the eventually annoying "help, I just registered and can't post" emails which they wouldn't have had to ask had they read the first email to begin with.

In a similar vein I still get numerous applications where people obviously don't read the requirements. I could go into great detail about it, but I won't. I really wish these were isolated incidents, but out of the webspace submissions at least a third to half get rejected due to people not having read and complying to the requirements.

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Postby starbuck » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:28 am

the real problem is you are all rite! ???
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Postby starbuck » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:28 am

You guys are all totaly justifyed to critisise peaple like me.
but please keep in mind sum peaple have bin bashed around so danm hard just for wering all black and being a little dark in presence that when they fiinaly find a place wher they think they have a chance to mingle with kindred spirits they get exited . now what do you think went throu my mind when I got bashed for gramer and spelling. yes I mised a lot of school I needed time for broozes to heel (both phisicaly and mentaly) from the last time I had my wind pipe presed between my locker and a football players arm. yes i can't spell inamered i mised that leson I was learning how to bluff my way throu a 72 hour phyce hold insted
in short ther is grand difrence between critisising and bashing so before you hit send I emplor you proof read and ask your self what your realy doing!
P.S. please pardon any erors gramatical or otherwise.(he said with all the false mirth he could muster)




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Postby blood_rose » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:49 am

I can understand how kids feel this way.

When I was in high school, I could have really used a board like this in terms of finding people with like interests.

The key difference here is LIKE INTERESTS.

Many of the kids coming on here need to realise that just because it says goth.net at the top doesn't mean that we're automatically going to be open to them. Social psychological rules are always the same in every group (except ravers and hippies and other groups who base their togetherness on mind "expanding" drugs) and social heirarchies exist here as they exist everywhere else.

Now most goth kids in high school have a completely different conception of goth than most of us who have been in the scene for a while. When we flame them for not knowing the difference, it is not flaming someone who is coming to us for comfort, but rather is flaming someone who is too ignorant to look up the nescessary initial information on their own.

We rarely put down people who come to us after reading the boards and then posting... people who have been lurking for a while.
However, we do find ourselves giving verbal slaps to people who come on here expecting the board to be somethign it's not.

We're mostly adults here, and expect people to pretty much act adult as well. The reason why is because the mods and regulars don't want to stick around at a board fuzzed out by the white noise of complete misconceptions of goth, personal flamewar exchanges, poor intentional spelling, and idiot topics based on dime store philosophy. Many boards are full of idiots because mods and admins are too lenient.

We seek to foster an atmosphere of intelligent discussion.


starbuck, I didn't realise that you had problems with spelling. had I known, I wouldn't have been as hard on you. As a recommendation, may I suggest typing all your responses in a processor like Word 2000 where you can spell check your responses before you put them up to the eyes of the world in a public forum.






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Postby 98-1051898756 » Thu May 22, 2003 6:32 am

Why do I feel like the youngest one in here LOL! :P
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