Here's some new articles on goth. This time discussing how roughly half of the teens they asked who identified with being goth had self-harmed at some point. There was some positive aspects of the article though like they pointed out it was only based on a small sample and that self-harmers should be of concern whatever social group they're from and that also young people can gain social and emotional support from being in subculture like goth.

BBC article

New Scientist article

Guardian article

The full study itself in report form with responses at the bottom

i read the study. why don't the study emo or something like that? i think emo has higher rate than goth...

Probably because it's a longitudinal study that has been conducted since 1994. Emo wasn't in the public eye back then the same as it is now and hardly anyone in the mainstream will have heard of it. Anyway I think you're stereotyping there. And with both studying goths and emos you'll have problems with the sampling as how would they define who was goth or not? As you can see from forums and sites like this there is a hell of a lot of debate on that. The kids who identified themselves strongly or weakly as goth in the study could have meant anything.

True. But between definition and the other, there is always a certain gray area. Besides, I think with Emo, Goth has redefined itself.

Didn't take long to turn this into an emo-bashing thread, did it?

I agree that the results are probably quite tainted since the mainstream view of goth is quite incorrect to begin with. It considers any teenager who listens to Manson or Kittie and wear black band t-shirts to be goth.

I also think that as was stated elsewhere, that it's not goths end up harming themselves, it's kids who harm themselves gravitate towards the fashion and music that they think would be best to identify with. And by music, I mean both groups. The real and the fake goth. I think it can be easily assumed, though, that of the 'goth' kids, most self-harmers will be the spooky kids. Remember the term 'fashionable alienation'? Dressing dark and scary and listening to angry noisy songs gives them the ability to cope with their emotional problems made worse with the torment that is being a teenager. As the report states, most of them self-harmed before they were 'goths'.

Here's a terrible article on the topic by Yahoo. It gets basic facts wrong such as saying we like Marilyn Manson and that the Columbine shooters were fascinated with goth (when they weren't).

What is with the whole world being out to fucking get Marilyn Manson?? The poor guy never did anything wrong! In fact, he is simply a very talented musician and an extremely clever man, with a wife who I admire a lot, and I am a very big fan of his. Why does everyone associate anything bad on the darker side to be his fault?

I read an article quite recently, which was a survey on young people self-harming. It had the the definition of Goth music correct and did say that Marilyn Manson was not Goth, which I'm sure y'all would approve of.

It's stupid that self-harming is associated with any stereotype. Being a self-harmer has nothing to do with the way you dress, the music you listen to or the state of mind you have. However, I think a lot of self-harmers tend to be into the darker side of life which could attract them to subcultures such as Goth or metalhead, etc. I am an ex-self harmer, though I have not entirely quit, I only very rarely do it now. I have a friend who is also an ex-self harmer who is far from being Goth, she's pink and girly. It's all just stereotypes, and people pick on us...I guess because we look different and spooky ???

You have to admit that many raving Manson fans are kids who run around saying they're scary and hate everything, they have swords and eat babies, that they're freaks and dress in black to scare people. I knew a few of them in high school. I think that it ultimately is Manson's fault, because he happily makes lyrics and music to cater to their tastes. He's had success pandering to that demographic, and doesn't seem interested to quit. I do respect him though, but I don't care for his music.

Every subculture gets picked on for whatever reason by different groups. Look at how goths pick on 'jocks' and 'chavs'. We're as ruthless with our stinging comments as they are towards us. I happen to have had great friends in those groups, who respected me for the way I am. I have also found that many steretypes are fundementally true. I can defend gothdom all I want and say we're well-adjusted people, but I have tried to commit suicide and have teetered on pill dependency for years. Am I a hypocrite then? Perhaps. Or I'm aware that it isn't my music taste or way of dressing that caused me to have breakdowns. I can't say that my breakdowns have made me like this music either. I'm sure if I was worried about what people would think about me when I stepped out the door or had that universal yearning to be popular, and as a result dressed in pastels and listened to pop music to connect with the majority, I would still have my emotional weaknesses.

The Goth subculture often appears as a haven to many troubled young teens who are "angry at the world" or "sick of life". Because these kids think they can find people who will relate to them and accept them in this subculture, a lot of them come into it in droves.

Of course, historically and presently, the Goth subculture has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with self-harm or the promoting or glorification of self-harm. Listen to all the big-name goth rock songs and you'll find very few, if any, references to (let alone promotion of) self-harm.

Because the mass media has tried to cast the Goth subculture in this sort of dark, vampiric, occultic, bloody light for so long, people are actually making it so. The Goth culture has for so long been falsely associated with occultism and blood, these disturbed teens think that the Goth subculture is the place for them. The thing is, most of these kids end up leaving the scene in a few years or less. These kids do not represent the actual Goth scene. They've been drawn to the scene under false impressions, thanks to mass media, and when they quickly discover the truth that most Goths are friendly, well-adjusted, humorous people, they go elsewhere to look for their doom and gloom.

Someone should take a survey and ask people how long they have been socially involved in the goth scene, and then ask them whether or not they've cut or attempted suicide. I have a feeling the people who "just got into the scene recently" would have the biggest ratio of self-harmers, while it would dramatically decrease for those who have been in the scene for a long time. Frankly because the spookykids usually become disillusioned with Gothdom pretty quickly and move on.

I can also see why this study shows that the Goth scene may actually help people build social skills and make friends. How many other major cliques are there that are as open and accepting as the Goth scene? As long as someone's not an utter twit, we pretty much welcome them with open fangs--er, arms.

Cheers, that's kinda what I was trying to say, only you said it better

I, personally, have never ever met a Marilyn Manson fan like this, but then I'm sure there are kids like this. Just like Slipknot have some slightly stranger fans. It doesn't make the musicians weird. It's not Manson's fault if their get the wrong end of his self-expression via music. And his lyrics are really not that provocative at all. There's nothing wrong with Manson, I love the guy, and actually he is considering quitting the music industry and going into film. But let's all hope he doesn't.
But hey, your point of view, we're all entitled to our own

BlackLaceKiss ~~ who is right at this moment wearing her Manson shirt with pride B) :p

I agree that it depends solely on the person and not on the subculture that they are associated with. I have a friend that is nowhere near gothic and I just found out he has self-harmed before.

The other side of this, however, is responsibility. If you dress in a way that is considered outre by societal standards, you have to anticipate that you will be scrutinized extra-hard for other elements of "difference", including the trappings of low self-esteem and mental illness. It comes with the package, whether you goth it up because you really are a ball of inner pain or simply because you think it's pretty. People who aren't brave enough to stand out usually don't, if you see what I mean.



Edited By Nachtzehrer on 1145829288

Nacht is right. If one is involved in one of the "darker" subcultures per se (especially Goth), one shouldn't try to act anymore depressed or mentally unstable than they actually are. I've known a lot of people who thought that because they were Goth, they had to seem all emotionally troubled. Well, don't.

I don't think Nacht or anyone is saying to just put on a fake, happy face for the sake of the subculture when you're feeling down, but we as a community need to work extra hard to repair the damage that's been done to our image by angsty kids that are trying too hard.

Believe me, I'm just as guilty. When I first started trying to be Goth 5 or 6 years ago, I actually tried to make myself depressed and tried to make myself like cutting (I was never ultimately successful with either in the long run), because I wanted to be "dark" and "cool." Big mistake. People just need to be themselves and not try to conform to stereotypes (which, the Gothic scene should be about nonconformism anyway). All that it's doing in the long run is hurting the rest of us who are in the scene not so we can appear manic depressive to everyone, but because we love the music, the people, the style, and the social atmosphere.

Um, I think it has a lot to do with the state of mind you have. Sure, there are some misguided people who self-harm because it has become something of a fashion nowadays, but, let's face it, the majority of people who put themselves through self-mutilation do it because they seek attention/they want to be 'in control' of the one thing they can influence - their body/they find self-harm gives them a 'buzz' or 'rush'/they have developed a self-loathing complex. All of the above have a hell of a lot to do with state of mind. If people didn't have the state of mind that made them think these unfortunate things, then it's likely they wouldn't self harm.

As for the article itself, I do concur with most people here when I say that I think being goth would seldom make one hurt themselves or take their life, yet, if some people were feeling like this without being in the subculture, perhaps they would feel more at ease with people who had darker asthetics and could talk about such things etc.