I will admit I was shit at dressing Goth and doing Goth make-up at first but you know...I think "poser" is such a harsh word. I mean, I love Gothic music but I also love heavy metal as heavy metal is and always will be my first love. What's wrong with that? It doesn't make me a "poser". I like dressing up even if I'm not going anywhere special just because it makes me feel good and I love presentation as an art so I always like wearing fancy shoes, clothes, make-up. But that doesn't make you a "poser".
When I started out with my Goth-isism, I used to wear shapeless baggy black skirt things with black trainers and black Gap t-shirts and "Goth" jewellery from mainstrem stores. I didn't know anywhere else to buy clothes. I'd wear badly-put-on black lipstick and messy black eyeliner and I'd wear white eye shadow all over my face (sadly with little bits of glitter in it). Yes, it looked completely and utterly shit. Yes, I am much better at dressing myself now because I'm more experienced. Yes, I probably looked like a poser to long-time Goths but if people went around calling me poser, that wasn't going to help me get my act together and get better acquainted with the Goth community. It was just going to upset me. It takes everyone time to get into the Goth subculture and people getting into it can be annoying, but give them a year: they'll learn the error of their ways.

Me? I've been doing goth every since I was little and didn't realize it because I didn't even know what ''goth'' was then. I would always wear black clothing and be by myself all the time, quite. I am that way today. I'm somewhat depressed alot because of my server lack of social skills.. Therefore I'm lonley.. My ''friends'' at school think I'm playing a game, so they talk about the devil and wear black fingernail polish around me, trying to be like me... It's very bullshit and annoying.. They think I'm some dark spirt or something. They think it's ''cool''. There just some posers is all.. Some ''friends'' huh?..I hate them.

That sounds a bit... contradictory?




~Hell's Angel~

I think what *Miss Enigma* means is that she has always been Goth and knew she was Goth but didn't know the name or stereotype for it because she wasn't aware what Goth was at that age. I think that's what she means, Hell's Angel, but *Miss Enigma* correct me if I'm wrong

That's what it looked like she was saying to me. It makes sense to me because I was the same. As I've said before I was always the way I am, into things associated with the goth subculture and I liked some of the music but I never knew it was called goth until I got the internet when I was older.

I think you're right, BlackLaceKiss.

Also, that point highlights an observation I have had respective to this conversation: It would seem that there are two general types (and many exceptions, I'm sure, but indulge me for the moment) of inductees into the subculture. The first, as *Miss Enigma* seems to be suggesting, are folks who affiliate with goth due to personal predilections pre-dating knowledge of or participation in the scene itself. In other words, they find out about a subculture that embodies and espouses ideology/iconography/et cetera already present in their set of interests and "join up", as it were; an outside observer of the person in question might not even notice the "change", as the individual was likely already pretty "gothy" to the view. The other group, represented by several others in this thread, become aware and enamored of the gothic subculture and undergo an actual personal transformation in order to assimilate. In these cases, an outside observer would see a marked and, in some cases, abrupt change in dress, music selection and, in some cases, attitude as the "new goth" uses trial and error to determine what is personally desirable and appropriate.

Obviously, both of these approaches are valid, and everyone comes from different places in life. Unfortunately, while the first group is likely to get away with little accusation of poseurism (and less flack from parents/family/friends, who have likely already resigned themeselves that the individual is "weird" long since), the latter group is a prime target for legitimate and illegitimate poseur finger-pointing. Often, such accusations are unfair, as the (usually) young person is experimenting with something new and thus cannot be expected to be poised and informed right off the bat, but there is also a contingent in this group who take things a bit extreme in their fierce desire for self-identity and, in some cases, a drive to break away firmly from established personal/social standards. Thus, you wind up with the vehement baby-bats who will viciously cling to their initial perceptions of what makes up goth, incomplete as those initial perceptions may be. Shaky self-esteem and the ache not to "lose face" in a new environment is a likely root of much of the confrontational aspect associated with "poseurs". On the other hand, outside perception and a lack of understanding can cause observers to be as overly harsh on the "poseurs" as the "poseurs" are on their real or imagined persecutors . . . and we wind up with a vicious circle. The only way to break the cycle, as I see it, is for an individual to make strong choices about what he/she wants and to ignore exterior pressure while staying true to him/herself: if that leads to goth, then great; and if not, well, no one ever said that subcultural affiliation of any kind was a pre-requisite for modern life.

~Nachty~

Oh! I see! That makes a bit more sense then.

*giggles*

I read it differently - I thought *Miss Enima* was saying she was a goth, but didn't know about it. (I was thinking back to that thread/poll where we had to decide what the most important thing was in the subculture, and I remember people saying that without knowledge of the subculture, you can't identify with it. Or something...)

Thanks for clarifying guys.




~Hell's Angel~

I know I had my "poser" phase, and I was here to show it off too. ><

I started it when my girlfriend left me. Typical, right? "I'm all alone, darkness consumes me, blah blah blah." But even though it was that that jumpstarted me into the culture, I didn't really understand it until later. Sure that week I went out and bought freakin' 200 dollars worth of GARBAGE at Hot Topic, but I don't wear any of it anymore. The only thing I buy from Hot Topic now are band tees on occasion, and nifty HIM stuff you can only get there (I'm addicted to Ville and his group ). But I began to dig deeper into it, and realized a lot of the things I'd been doing in normal life were considered "gothic". Edgar Allen Poe has been one of my favorite writers for a long, long time, second only to Dean Koontz.

It took me awhile to get into the music, but then again, I live for music. My playlist is so random you'd swear I was a crazy person. From :wumpscut: to Linkin Park, A Heartwell Ending to Smile.dk, Inkubus Sukkubus to Tantric, as long as it's not country or rap, I'll give it a shot. I'm not a big fan of screaming metal like Eternal Tears of Sorrow, but clean vocals are a big plus to me.

Got off topic there...back on track. I'm still working on learning more about the culture and the systematics of everything, but I think I've come a long ways from the naive person I used to be.

Now, if only I could afford the clothes I found... ???

I think my poser stage was from when I started dressing "goth" back in seventh grade to about halfway through my sophomore year when I became something of a hippy. During that time I just wore the typical Hot Topic uniform, went with the flow, and thought to myself how unique i was. That pretty much continued into my hippy phase until halfway through my junior year when i got kicked out of school, arrested, pretty much all my friends abandoned me, and a few problems at home. After that i started fresh, new friends, new school, new name, new outlook, and grades from classes that no one in the public school system could make heads or tales of and took my word for (: ... two good things i did take away from the Hippy and Hot Topic phases were respectively the ability to customize and make my own clothes, and a ton of materials to work with.

I didn't consider myself a poseur or even knew what it was back then. I admit in the beginning I tried too hard, but now I'm slowing leaning into it and learning. I remember almost 2 years ago I foolishly thought that wearing all black and believing Hot Topic was heaven would make me goth. I began doing research on the subculture and realised that I had the attitude of a goth, but I still felt unsure of who I am. I didn't want to pretend I was someone I wasn't-not anymore.

Then I realised when I look back on when I was growing up, I've always liked darker things than most people. This is natural for me. So I'm taking it slow and things have gotten so much better. I DON'T buy my black cloths from Hot Topic. I only go there for accessories. I don't wear black all the time like I did in the beginning. I don't stop listening to my music because it isn't goth( but can get dark sometimes).

So basically, I'm out of my 'posuer' stage( I prefer to call it naive), but not real deep into the 'scene'. I'm borderline and I like it that way. When people come up to me ask me am I goth, I just say " Yes and no." and go on with my business.

That sounds like me. This thread kinda confuses me, actually, but it's probably just me getting old.

Amen. It's like a replication we all go through, but eventually wisen up to as well.

Nachty, I read your whole post and I just have to wonder which college degrees you might have (social science? I dunno.) But you made a very good point.

I think I'm kind of in between those two types. I didn't start actively pursuing the goth subculture until a few years ago (I'm 25, btw), but I've always been, err, wierd. I've always liked vampires, mythology and alternative religions, human oddities and wierd medical conditions, body modification, other cultures, EA Poe, etc. etc. I would have my "goth" clothes for special occasions (like the local sci-fi convention), and I started to assimilate more gothy clothes into my wardrobe. I was still listening to music like Rammstein, tool, Linkin Park (gah!), Disturbed, etc.

Then, I began to wonder what goth really was about. I knew that the music I liked wasn't goth and that there had to be more to it than the clothes and the stereotypical attitude. So I began my research (starting with goth.net) and I guess the rest is history.

Wow! I'll take that as a major compliment, AS. I only wish I was so well-informed: I've got two college degrees, but they are both in acting, so I only pretend to know what I'm talking about . . .

I guess I'm probably too old to have been a "poseur" in the sense of the word.
Listening to goth and new wave when I was an adolescent...well, everyone did it. It was either that or listen to Janet Jackson or Air Supply.
Plus we didn't have anything remotely close to a Hot Topic...you pretty much made your clothes DIY...the punk and goth look wasn't considered a commodity.