I don't really concider most of these bands metal, but I decided It would be better to post info about them here just in case, and maybe it will get moved to goth if it deserves it.

Anyway everyone knows about gothic metal, and numetal trying to be goth and such. And most of them are easy to distinguish from Goth but there are a few bands that have grown more notice in gothic culture that are gothic rock bands that became gothic metal or metal bands that became gothic metal through some divine intervention that told them to stop making shitty music..

Tiamat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDQGEi9_cUU

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat_(band)

A once heavy metal band, turned goth. By 2002 the band shifted into a baritone gothic metal/ atmospheric modern gothic rock band influenced by bands like Nosferatu and Sisters of Mercy. The influence is easy to hear.

Lacrimas Profundere

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSUbMQWWeJYp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacrimas_Profundere

Doom Metal band that eventually transfered to Doom-Gothic (a metal subgenre that is at least SAID to be goth rock influenced in some ways) and have become a 69 eyes sound-a-like, but some how more bearable. (the singer even does the UHH vocal thing to sound tough like the singer of 69 eyes)

Love Like Blood

http://www.myspace.com/lovelikebloodde (fan site)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Like_Blood

Gothic rock band during the 80s and 90s but developed into a gothic metal band to keep up with the times. They have a CD that is a tribute to the goth culture in a form of covering goth songs up till modern times, (really good except for their Cure cover, you can't cover the cure. I have yet to see it happen and not be a monster).


These bands; well from what I have read and heard; are who help push the idea that Gothic Metal is a form of gothic rock. But then again these bands are very different from many of the "mainstream" gothic metal bands that have acheieved mass fame and fortune.

P.S. The Wikipedia page on Gothic Metal has been cleaned up and has alot of information I find quite interesting about influences on gothic metal bands. Definitely worth a look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_metal

Dude, Love Like Blood ARE a gothic rock band. I've never heard anyone argue the contrary. They receive regular club play(or at least they should!!) and are a huge influence on the German gothic scene.
I see no reason why LLB should be discredited. They're no more "metal" than Fields of the Nephilim.

I think you pretty much cleared up the fact that both Tiamat and Lacrimas Profundere used to be metal, and have since crossed over into the gothic scene, although I'm not a huge fan of either bands' latest material, finding it slightly boring.

Tiamat, however, were one of my favorite bands at one point, especially during their Deeper Kind of Slumber album, which was their first gothic rock-oriented album, and an amazing one at that.
However, Skeleton Skeletron and subsequent albums proved to be slightly disappointing.

Anyways, I don't think any of these bands really blur the lines between "gothic metal" and gothic music, they've merely jumped scenes. Well, perhaps Wildhoney blurred the lines somewhat.
On that note, some other goth/metal genre-blurring bands to check out would be Australia's Virgin Black, and Germany/Switzerland's Lacrimosa.

Well I'm used to goth forums being VERY picky, seriously If I posted this on gothic.net or deathrockforums, I'd be instantly flamed to death. I was only saying Love Like Blood are gothic metal because of their new releases being modernized when it comes to guitar sound and distortion. And didn't FoN try and go for a gothic metal sound with newer releases?

I've never heard of Virgin Black, I'll check that out.

I like post-metal Tiamat. I thought it was really funny when a friend went and bought one of their albums, though, not knowing they used to be full on metal. "WTF!?!"

As for Fields of the Nephilim, Zoon was basically a death metal album, but most of their stuff fits in with the whole 2nd generation goth thing, I guess. More "genre-jumping".

I highly recommend Virgin Black... awesome stuff. Doomy and heavy at times, but always graceful. Fragile, but proficient vocals. Great composers, beautiful melodies.

While later Love Like Blood and Fallen-era FOTN definitely used metal guitars, their song-structure and overall style remained pretty solid gothic rock.
I believe there to be many prerequisites other than a guitar sound for a band to be considered a metal band.

Carl McCoy went metal on the Zoon album. Indeed it was very much a genre-blurring album in itself, combining gothic, metal, and industrial elements.

Virgin Black are a brilliant creative band from Australia. They play a sort of symphonic gothic doom metal, heavy on the symphonic/gothic. Very beautiful multifaceted music, which generally revolves around themes of funerals/afterlife. The band consider themselves to be "unorthodox christians", meaning they believe in god and the original teachings of christ, yet despise the church and the corrupt state of modern christianity.

Lacrimosa are essentially a goth band who incorporate elements of classical music, opera, and metal guitar riffs into their formula.

Also check out Moonspell: originally they were called Morbid God and played medieval folk-influenced black metal, then reformed as Moonspell, and played a sound on their first 2 albums(Under the Moonspell, Wolfheart) mixing goth, black metal, and Portuguese folk; then changed to more of a gothic metal sound on Irreligious, played full-on goth rock on Sin/Pecado, and then gradually changed back to a gothic-themed black metal sound on their later albums.

Other recommended GOTHIC metal bands would be Dreadful Shadows and ASP, both from Germany.

Yes I've checked out ASP and Moonspell before and have a few albums. Moonspell's song 'Vampiria' became a classic in my eyes quite quickly. I'm checking out Virgin Black's myspace right now, and I've seen reviews on their new album saying its the heaviest to date, so is there one that you would say is their best? Also if anyone is interested and doesn't know Warrel Dane of Nevermore has a solo album coming out (leaked online if you want it now ) and he classifies it under gothic and metal. He cites Bauhaus, Peter Murphy and The Cure as influences though it still sounds more like Nevermore. What's great is that he has modernized 'Lucretia My Reflection' by The Sisters Of Mercy by covering it on his album. This has opened the Sisters and goth to a new crowd and it can even be seen on the youtube video of the original song. Sure the metal heads started to bicker with the goths but at least they like the same song now



P.S. I got the leaked version, and I believe its released in May in the US/Canada, and I can't wait to buy it, he deserves the money he gets from the album sales.

Also I must say, thanks guys for telling me about Virgin Black. They're quite amazing.

I always tell people, "Clicking your distortion pedal does not make it metal, even if it says 'metal' on it". It seems like some newer bands shy away from certain tones and effects in order to avoid being pegged as metal. Kind of sad. If you put heavy distortion on the original tracks from a classic goth band, it wouldn't suddenly put them into a different genre.


I had not heard of this. Awesome news. I always wondered about the Bauhaus shirt he wore in some photos. *sneaks off find the song*

I am no music guru but...

Generally I've always thought Metal is most defined by the sound of the guitar. There's a certain sound and certain style of playing that gives something a metal sound. Drums always help, but for an example if you listen to Slayer or Hammerfall or something, their drumming is generally pretty fast, compare that to say, umm MY Dying Bride or some Candlemass songs or something, then go listen to something like Brodequin or Devourment... they are all metal, their vocals are all very different, their drumming is all very different but the one thing they have most in common is the sounds of the guitars. Distortion is probably the number one way to achieve a metal sound and always will be in my opinion.

Although it goes without saying that you can't just pick up a guitar, tap your metal pedal and away you go... you need to be a mettler to play real metal

Distortion is definitely a hallmark of metal, but that doesn't make anything with 'X' amount of distortion metal. Nor does it mean metal must have it.

It's like goth, in that there are many styles, but they all derive from a common background. You can hear the Sabbath influence in Slayer, as well as My Dying Bride, for example. Other genres branch off, and get really abstract, but can still be traced back to earlier bands.
.

Apocalyptica use cellos, and it still screams 'metal' much of the time. If someone did gallop rhythms, at 250 bpm, with screaming, on an acoustic guitar, it would still be recognizable as metal to most people. It's just very unconventional.

Likewise, Deathrock, rock, punk, goth, etc. use distortion, but are not metal. See my 'classic goth bands' example above.
The term 'nu-metal' came about because the level of distortion was metal-like, but fans saw nothing 'metal' about it. Hence 'Nu' (Limp Bizkit, etc.) instead of 'new' (at the time, In Flames, Dark Tranquility, etc.). The mainstream media called it metal, simply because of distortion, discerning writers countered with "Nu-Metal". It's roughly analogous to 'Goth'/'Mallgoth'...contains the same word, but is vastly different.

To L&L:
Just reread and saw that I missed your question about VB.

I recommend Elegant...and Dying for a good mix of elements, and beautiful songwriting. I haven't heard a lot of the new stuff, though, so that opinion may yet change.

The last album they released is a triple album called Requiem. Disc one (Pianissimo) is all orchestral, written in a very baroque/romantic/classical era style.
Disc two (Mezzo-Forte) is a mix of orchestra and heavy/gothy/doomy stuff.
Disc three (Fortissimo) is the heaviest thing they've put out. All screaming/growling with heavy guitars, and a 'Death choir' featuring a variety of known growlers/screamers.

I haven't bought Requiem yet, but this is what I've read/heard.

Screamo

Yeah, there's always a way to make certain types of music without using the standard methods, no argument there.

I just think that distortion gives most music a metal sound, that and rhythm.

Do you mean Apocalyptica or screaming with an acoustic?

I find Apocalypticas instrumental stuff very metal sounding at times. As for acoustic stuff with harsh vocals, I was thinking more along the lines of folk/ambient metal. Agalloch, Ensiferum, Asmegin, Korpiklaani/Shaman, etc.

Metal includes guitar distortion, but then again, so does punk, grunge, nu-metal, industrial rock, grindcore, noise rock, stoner rock, you-name-it.

It's not the guitar sound, but the guitar style(Iron Maiden, for example, uses little distortion, and most black metal bands use a completely different kind of distortion) and the way the songs are structured.

Fields of the Nephilim, Lacrimosa, and Love Like Blood all infuse metal-sounding guitars into gothic rock-styled compositions. However, as far as Metal Archives would be concerned, none of these bands have the song-structure prerequisites to be considered metal bands, because the way gothic rock songs are written, not to mention the main FOCUS of the music, is completely different.