Here's an interesting question; which is more worthwhile - taking the path of strife, or that of least resistance? What are the merits of either course?

I guess I would go for neither... I always chose the path of dialogue when it's possible. Unfortunately sometimes dialogue is not possible, what should we do in such cases then? I would go for nothing... we have a say over here "there is no person more deaf then him who doesn't want to hear", why fight when we have to do with such people?
Honestly I wonder if there even is a circumstance in which we're not allowed to simply ignore or quit...

Early People had Heros and Chief that were great in their time (Osiris and Odin are examples), they died, and people being fascinated with the dead, then began to honor and ask the spirits of these people for help, Shamanism/Animism/Ancestor Worship. This in turn became the start of polytheism because people began to think that these people are gods. So the great village doctor became the spirit/god of medicine, and the great farmer became the plant god. Now some spirits/gods are truly fake to the root and are made up. but for the most part, people create gods from historical figures.

Gods are fake, there is no such thing as a "god" but, there can be some kind of force that drives the world, besides the fact of Judaism and Hinduism having a bunch of mumbo jumbo, there are some key elements that just might surprise you if you try to understand them. Somethings are more closer to a fact then a "fairy tail".

As for Stephen Hawking’s new book The Grand Design, it is said that he proves that the universe was made without a god or gods, I dont know if this is true, because i have never read the book, but for the ones who wish to read it if I may give a warning or a piece of advice when buying one of his books. Get one in layman's terms because he normally publishes 2 types of books, one for physicists and another for people who dont know jack shit about physics, and even with that being said, its still a hard read, but yet it is addictive to read his books if you are a scholar and a seeker of truths about how the world works.

A while ago, Cassie asked about convincing arguments that there is/are god(s). I think I've already reacted that I don't know any. Now that book by Stephen Hawkings, I suppose, is probably a theory about the origin of the universe and planet earth.

I doubt whether a sound theory of the origin of everything without god(s) would actually convince any believer of the non-existence of god(s). I mean, those 'proofs' of god(s) existence don't convince too many people as well. Logics and theories will probably not cut if for people who believe in invisible, omnipotent 'powers that be'. The ultimate test for non-believers to be convinced of the existence of something, would be to see (or perhaps expierence) it. But how can you - provided that you feel that desire - convince people who believe in invisible, omnipotent deities that they do not exist?

In short, what qualifies as evidence for theories about things that we cannot pick up, measure, test, or disect?

BTW, I would be curious to the things that aren't god(s), but are driving force, not the vague fairy tales, but the truth/fact. I can think of all kinds of things that you could be aiming at, but it's perhaps safer to ask.

I believe in a Force, the reason I picked out Judaism, and Hinduism is because they have a history of trying to prove the existence of this force... Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein on one side and the Satagurus on the other, also there are many Shamans who tried to explain this "force", we can think of God as the Great Zeus. We need to understand that there is more, we have to question. Even Albert Einstein questioned Isaac Newton, which was crazy! But what did he get out of that? E=MC2...

Im not saying to not believe, I welcome people to question their believes, did God really make the world in 7 days?

I liked Arq's idea of hitting a Pagan when they mention the threefold law or something like that. (I forget where he posted that, but it was a while back...)

Overall, if someone's belief in a driving force is all encompassing on their heart, mind, and dare I say soul, then I doubt there is any person, theory, or hardcore 100% facts that can dissolve all inquiries about the existence of god(s). In fact when a person believes in god(s) I honestly believe that only one person can change their mind and make them believe otherwise- and that is themselves through the power of their own doubt and how their mind comprehends things and accepts the world around them.

Only when a person can convince themselves (by whatever means) will that person no longer believe in god(s). No one can do it for them. They can plant the seeds, but not change their mind. As the old saying goes "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink".

Just as a non believer must have something happen on a personal level to make them change, so must the same happen to a believer to make them change.

I think this way because faith is something that is hard to describe once you have it then it can be hard to get rid of. Faith is often blind. Because of this, it has to power to rationalize anything to fit its purpose.


And this post is in no way meant to be disrespectful of any religion or spiritual ideology as I myself am a spiritual person.

I am afraid I couldn't have said it better...

Friedrich Nietzsche did bring this up before in his writings... To tell you the truth I would have to agree with you, no one can't make you drink water; but how far can that go?

I know people to this very day because of their "strong" religious convictions, believe that the world is flat. I know people who believe that dinosaurs lived at the same time with humans. I know people that believe that evolution is false and that the world was made in 7 days. I know people who believe that the Garden of Eden exists.

1. The world was seen as flat till then sent a rocket and took photos of the Earth.
2. Dinosaurs are found deeper into the ground and are fossils (I suggest looking up the scientific deffiniton of fossil, compared to bones).
3. Evolution is a scientific FACT, just like how humans adapted to new conditions (like lights to the far north and south and darks to the center)
4. 7 days? yeah, lets try 4 billion + years...
5. We have countries on every major landmass, you think we maybe we would of found it?


Everything is symbolic, people cant take the stories for face value, there are meanings to them... Like in the creation myth, why did God created the sun, moon and the stars after the fact of light and dark, and even the Earth. If you ask a Rabbi, he will tell you its because "The Jews wanted to make a statement to the pagan world that the sun, moon and stars were only God's creation and had no value or power to them i.e they are not gods, to then prove the fact that there is only ONE (creator) of the universe".

And if my people have symbols for stuff from 6,000+ years ago what makes you think others wont?

I am very spiritual myself, but I keep it to a logical level. There are things that you can't just deny. You can, but Im not going to promise you that everyone would laugh at it, I have more respect then to do that because my own mother believes in the stuff i just listed above. Faith, is something personal, and it is something I respect to the up most importance. But there is just a limit into how much you can deny science.

Im not a person who believes in nothing, I do believe in a Force, I do pray, I do my thing, but I don't let mythology get in the way of facts. If God gave us a mind, why put it to waste, RRIIIGGGHHTT?

One can be spiritual and be fine, but when a person becomes dogmatic, thats when shit hits the fan for me and totally turns me out. I dont need another person to come and tell me what to believe and what not to believe in, I have my mother for that ...






It doesn't always have to be personal. Education plays a major roll in it. This does not mean that religious people are uneducated, simply not true, because Isaac Newton was fucking brilliant. But when a person is given an education, they begin to see the world in a more logical way. A LOT of Jews are logical thinkers but are spiritual at the same time, like Baruch Spinoza, even Rambam (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon) had some logical and spiritual arguments, more spiritual then logical but thats how I like it.

I made the conclusion through thinking and reasoning, not because someone told me to think this way. You can still believe in something BIG without being a religious fanatic. It can be done without contradiction. Spirituallity is good for the N'feysh (soul)

and if you let faith (blind faith) rationalize anything, it will only lead to disaster.

Blind Faith = Hitler

People had blind faith in him and his ideas, and look what happened to Europe, see its not always good to have faith in some things, especially "blind faith", you have to be skeptical at times... Because remember, he was elected into power, its not like he overthrew the government...



Same here, I hope people don't find me offinsive because I try not to, and if I have in a past post, sorry...

-- Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:36 am --




I am afraid I couldn't have said it better...

Friedrich Nietzsche did bring this up before in his writings... To tell you the truth I would have to agree with you, no one can't make you drink water; but how far can that go?

I know people to this very day because of their "strong" religious convictions, believe that the world is flat. I know people who believe that dinosaurs lived at the same time with humans. I know people that believe that evolution is false and that the world was made in 7 days. I know people who believe that the Garden of Eden exists.

1. The world was seen as flat till then sent a rocket and took photos of the Earth.
2. Dinosaurs are found deeper into the ground and are fossils (I suggest looking up the scientific deffiniton of fossil, compared to bones).
3. Evolution is a scientific FACT, just like how humans adapted to new conditions (like lights to the far north and south and darks to the center)
4. 7 days? yeah, lets try 4 billion + years...
5. We have countries on every major landmass, you think we maybe we would of found it?


Everything is symbolic, people cant take the stories for face value, there are meanings to them... Like in the creation myth, why did God created the sun, moon and the stars after the fact of light and dark, and even the Earth. If you ask a Rabbi, he will tell you its because "The Jews wanted to make a statement to the pagan world that the sun, moon and stars were only God's creation and had no value or power to them i.e they are not gods, to then prove the fact that there is only ONE (creator) of the universe".

And if my people have symbols for stuff from 6,000+ years ago what makes you think others wont?

I am very spiritual myself, but I keep it to a logical level. There are things that you can't just deny. You can, but Im not going to promise you that everyone would laugh at it, I have more respect then to do that because my own mother believes in the stuff i just listed above. Faith, is something personal, and it is something I respect to the up most importance. But there is just a limit into how much you can deny science.

Im not a person who believes in nothing, I do believe in a Force, I do pray, I do my thing, but I don't let mythology get in the way of facts. If God gave us a mind, why put it to waste, RRIIIGGGHHTT?

One can be spiritual and be fine, but when a person becomes dogmatic, thats when shit hits the fan for me and totally turns me out. I dont need another person to come and tell me what to believe and what not to believe in, I have my mother for that ...






It doesn't always have to be personal. Education plays a major roll in it. This does not mean that religious people are uneducated, simply not true, because Isaac Newton was fucking brilliant. But when a person is given an education, they begin to see the world in a more logical way. A LOT of Jews are logical thinkers but are spiritual at the same time, like Baruch Spinoza, even Rambam (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon) had some logical and spiritual arguments, more spiritual then logical but thats how I like it.

I made the conclusion through thinking and reasoning, not because someone told me to think this way. You can still believe in something BIG without being a religious fanatic. It can be done without contradiction. Spirituallity is good for the N'feysh (soul)

and if you let faith (blind faith) rationalize anything, it will only lead to disaster.

Blind Faith = Hitler

People had blind faith in him and his ideas, and look what happened to Europe, see its not always good to have faith in some things, especially "blind faith", you have to be skeptical at times... Because remember, he was elected into power, its not like he overthrew the government...



Same here, I hope people don't find me offinsive because I try not to, and if I have in a past post, sorry...

-- Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:39 am --

There ought to be a delete button, just in case for situations like this... My post repeated its self, and I cant delete it if it does. Its annoying when that happens

First of all- Brilliant post! It really made me think.

As for faith not always being personal, but educational. I have never really thought of faith along those lines before. Education can and does play a role in religion and how you view spirituality, but does it really play a role in faith? After all isn' faith an (irrational) belief not based on facts but of mere speculation? How far can education really go in the way a person views faith?

This I must think strongly on.

As for blind faith being bad...I think it depends on the person and who uses it. Mother Teresa had blind faith and look at all the good she brought to the world. Granted, though, that by the end the world had gotten to her and she had a cold relationship with god by the end of her journey, but the point is, she never stopped doing it.

I think the question is this: Is there any situation where blind faith can be a good and useful thing in normal everyday life?

I think so. If you have blind faith that your day will be a good one, it sets your mind up that you WILL have a good day. It changes your perceptive and mind overcomes matter to the point you do end up having a good day. Yeah, what happened was a form of science. You know that, I know that, but blind faith goes beyond (and even uses science) for its own agenda.

On a personal level, I see science and spirituality as being one in my mind. I am a woman of science. But I am also a woman of spirituality. They fit so perfectly in my mind that I sometimes cannot tell one from the other. I laugh whenever I hear some say that science disproves religion, just as religion disproves science.

In my head, science and spirituality are two halves of the same coin.

Saint Thomas Aquinas, Baruch Spinoza, Rambam, I mean the list goes on! Of people who are Spiritual and who tryed to make God into a form of scientific knowledge... They are some of the great minds, and revolutionaries in their times...

Most Jews get a better education then most other religions (thats a historical and modern fact) we have always been the most literate and the most educated, some of the best thinkers and noble peace prize winners are in fact Jewish. And 70% and plus more of American Jewry are Basicly "Spiritual" in some form of way, why? Education my friend... Why is Israel so Secular, but yet its a "Jewish State? Because more people with college diplomas live there per square mile than any other country on Earth. More Scientific Journals are published in Israel than any other country on Earth. We just know how to marry science, philosophy, and religion together, like the ancient greeks once did, just more advance.

Education plays a role in the cognitive mind set of the brain, if someone does not have the mind to reason things, they are basically not able to be human. One can reason God, how other way you can get to understand the forces that be?

There is a force, and this object moves the multiverses in a rhythm, this rhythm affects everything, thats why when my ancestors wrote Genesis, what did God do first? God Spoke, this is a vibration of sound, sound is what created the world, and this is the basis for string theory. Sound if you didnt know, also opens the whole mind, on consciously and subconsciously levels, which is why when a shaman beats a drum, he can go into a trance. Trance music is another good example, how people can dance for hours on end and be, well, in trance... Which opens the spiritual aspect of these sciences... See, science and religion can at last come together in peace...

Faith is Irrational, but the denial of something that has no base for denial is Irrational as well my friend




I cant even put to much faith in science let alone a religion, one cant even trust one self, (that is if your crazy in the head) One must give it time, just because I dont know what lies beyond the ocean, does not give me the right to make shit up lol... But if I formulate an Idea, and think that there might be something. That is something different... At the end, its about how you present your idea to the world, not the idea its self... You can say there can be an Alien race of marshmallow people that live on the 8 dimension... OK, plausible, but thats because you tried backing it up the claim through reason. But if you say "you have to believe" then your gonna loose everyone. Philosophers are not always right, but they did try, and the thought is what counts... If you come to me and say that there is a different force that drives the moon, the sun and the stars, ok, I might see that, but you gave it "thought" you didnt just pulled it out of some 2,000 year old book and told me to believe in the juju monster on top of the mountain controls the moon

Again, its all about how you present your idea to the world



I couldn't agree with you more, it is the same, just not a lot of people see it that way sadly...

This is why a lot of Theoretical Physicist are "Spiritual", they believe in a solid foundation of science, reason and logic... But once you know the formulas, there are some crazy shit people just dont know about

I like you, SirVigil. You have me much to contemplate on.

Good, I want you to think for your self... People now a days are so used to having others think for them... No, use your cognitive mind to solve situations, because no one will solve them for you... Well, maybe people can, but then you wont understand it as good as if you were to do it your self... Working the mind a bit is always good ...

You'll find a lot of people here are rather good at that.

THANK GOD! At least there be some hope for humanity...

I *think* I agree with you both, but since I've been wasting my life so far on trivialities and have very little to no knowledge about philosophy, the meaning of words you use is somewhat uncertain to me (even though they do have an exact translation in my language) and so I can't say for sure if what you say is exactly what I have in mind.

Anyway, as I see it, science is just an attempt of understanding the world around us. The same is the concept of god, or any other force that may exist out there. What really makes them different? We believe that science is something that is actually true, but every 'proof' can be denied and we have examples of this in the past. In the end I think that accepting any explanation for the universe is inevitably linked to faith. You either have it in some higher being or in the principles of Physics. On one hand the concept of god seems bizzare to me - but on the other, so does the science-y explanation of things if I really come to think about it. And while I believe the latter one will always be correct (whatever it actually is, I lost track by now ) for me, and for most people it's just the question of blind believing those who claim to hold the truth (I mean, come on, who really understands the theory of relativity, or wave-particle duality? And I mean, understands, not just accepts and uses in solving problems) - and in that what makes it different from faith in supernatural? (as long as the faith in supernatural doesn't contradict undeniable facts e.g. the earth is round/flat)

And, I will always say people here are great thinkers and make great points of view even if I'm often not able to keep up with them.

I think, as always, you do yourself a disservice, morana!

I think you've summed up exactly the way I understand this discussion. I agree; in some ways, individuals like Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking are like High Priests of the new faith; they propose ideas for understanding the universe, and yet often their propositions exist so far in the realms of the Theoretical that the less gifted may glimpse only a tiny portion of what those propositions actually mean, and therefore we have to take what they're proposing on a degree of faith. And, many of those ideas cannot, at present (and may never) be proven. VERY like religious belief.