Something does not need to be violent in order to be goth but many things that are considered dark/goth are violent. Same goes for dark, depression naturally goes with dark, we associate moods with these styles. They do not have to equal dark but dark is much more successful at defining them. I respectfully disagree with you, though there is no definite answer, it is simply a matter of preference. It is impossible to debate what defining characteristics apply to the goth style because there are just too many variables.

Yes, I've had therapy as a kid before Mr. Crow, I've been through the whole thing. Thank you for your response.

This^^

I never bothered with what was normal, in my opinion the way people in my community become sheep, following each other and wearing the exact same tracksuits as each other and everything, seemed strange and boring. I couldn't understand it, and I didn't want to even bother trying to conform to what they thought was normal. In my head, I was the normal one.

And to be fair, when you watch videos like "Neds Kru ft. Wee Man - Here You (That'll Be Right)" you see why I think the neds are the weird ones. >.>

I always took comfort in the fact that I realized I wasn't normal. I really don't want to be normal either. It's the different problems that people have that make them who they are. The difference in people is how obvious they make their problems and that's what others see.

I look at things a certain way, I like doing things the way I like to do things, yet still appear in style. For example, there are things that are frowned upon but are still good. For example, dressing up everyday, my job is for taking care of the handicapped. It is a laid back job yet I still wear ties, suit vests and I keep up with all my other grooming routines just as I would if I went out to a club. Now, the reason I give this example is because it's unusual that I'm overdressed. I like to be unique and consistent. I'm weird socially. I don't really have a sense of humor, and well, if you knew me you'd know.

I just wish more people dressed up in style these days. People just don't seem to care. One of my favorite things about goth people is the interest in fashion and the fashion itself. One of the most defining parts about it.

Anyways, back on topic. I've been me for as long as I can remember. Over the last few years I've thought about my place in all this. To answer the question I'd have to say I started in 10th grade.

I meant no offense, and it's Mrs. Crow. I simply wanted to clarify in case another stereotype (e.g. goths are depresed/violent/blahblah media blah) was about to occur. It seems you have thought out your position, which many who seem to hold often do not do. Good on you.

No offense taken Mrs. Crow. You're probably right, maybe I do need help, hah hah. Some sort of help.

I feel like I never "became" a Goth. I think it's something we all just grow into. To me, it's a part of ourselves that we discover and grow up into. For some, they move passed it, causing the phase label. For most, it remains to be a part of you. I think I really /felt/ goth when I really started to embrace the music in grade ten. Before that, the label sounded like an insult when I heard parents say it.

A friend of my mother's actually told me she had told her son he could be anything he wanted to be except for a Goth kid. I asked her what was so wrong about being Goth, motioning to my black choppy hair and brocade and velvet outfit. She couldn't come up with a good answer, other than "It's just too hard to handle as a parent." It forced me to take the defensive for once, so I guess that was the moment where it really hit me.

I was always a fan of darker things from a young age but I never got into the scene more until I hit high school. I decided that I needed to stop hiding who I was and the way I really wanted to dress from the world. It started off with a few rock tee shirts here and there and then by the end of my high school year the majority of my wardrobe was black. My musical tastes were always rooted in rock music but after I graduated high school I started listening to darker, more ethereal forms of music and I haven't looked back since.

I started buying goth stuff online and my mom's like, "you're too old for that stuff." (My mom is very conservative, as I am too.) My mom has a problem with everything I do regarding my looks. She wants me to get a hair cut, wear blue jeans, she doesn't like that I dyed my hair, heck, she doesn't even like that I dress up everyday I go out. My brother just calls it emo or stupid. All my friends, my brother and even my dad like the music. I originally found the style on rhapsody one day in study hall at school. Beforehand I had already been listening to Azoic, however through Azoic I discovered Apoptygma Berzerk, VnV Nation, Project Pitchfork, and Diary of Dreams, that's how it started.

As I collected more and more goth music in my 20's I realized it was the genre that I liked the best. So it happened gradually over time, although I always did seem to have a facination with the creepier side of things.

Hmm... I think when I was 15, so not too long ago...

This is what I've always meant about being "born goth" as opposed to becoming. I get that it's a silly thing to say if you interpret it literally, like it's raining cats and dogs. Just simply the expression of a part of who you are, which would exist without the existence of goth just would not be expressed the same way. Make sense?

The second part here made me think, because one of the reasons I decided to find out about goth was when some friends of mine found out that a girl in this same group used to be goth. Somehow I ended up in a flaming fury of praise for goth-hood. Whoa say I, the hell, what was that. Ok then, I see what I need to do now.

This might be complicating things more than is necessary but I'm just going to say it then explain my standpoint. I don't believe anyone is goth and I don't believe anyone is not-goth. Goth is everything and anything for if it had rules it woulden't make sense given it's rebelias nature. The reality of it is that it is everything that it is not. So, there is only perception and that is all that matters according to me and I mean that quite litterally. If I want to dress like a rapper and call myself goth than I am goth.

But what is the point in breaking down something that was never clearly defined in the first place? There is no point, we just like to call eachother poseurs and define it by our own definitions and by what we hear. For me, this concept defines life as I see it and it's part of who we are, not what we're meant to do but what we've been taught. We're just repeating over and over again and the only thing that exists is influence. It creates what we say and do because without influence we would have nothing. Society is glorified influence.

So what age did I become goth? I answered this earlier but I didn't really answer it. The answer depends on weather you believe in things that aren't physical and I believe that is where the question begins and where the question begins is not physical. If we didn't trust in things that weren't physical we would get nowhere.

I know Adam Savage sounded cool when he said "I reject your reality and substitute my own" but it wasn't intended to be life advice.

Except that it does have rules. It's a subculture, and there clearly are things that are and are not Goth. There are many things that are not unique to the subculture, many things with cross-over appeal, but if one is familiar enough with the subculture, there are clear yet unspoken rules to it. Subcultures aren't technically "rebellious" in the truest sense of the word, which implies not only resistance to social traditions, but to any established authority, including governmental. Social rebels may be a part of one subculture or another, but the defining point of a subculture is that its a group of people semi-removed from its parent culture that defines itself as a distinct group. Social rebels, on the other hand, exist both within subcultures and the dominant culture, and are defined as those who openly resist authority, be it the authority of a minor's guardian, or the authority of local, state, and/or federal governments. James Dean's character in Rebel Without a Cause was defined as a rebel not for sporting a vaguely-"rockabilly" look, but because he explicitly denounced the authority of his parents, takes part in a "chicken race" that ends in the death of his opponent, and the film opens with his character getting arrested for underage drinking. In comparison, the Greasers in Grease --who never get arrested, go out of their way to avoid injuries in a mere drag race, and only test the authority of parents and teachers (and often only implicitly so) are far more clearly part of a subculture, but significantly less rebellious.

Subcultures are only "rebellious" if one is watering down the definition of "rebellious" to the point that it's effectively meaningless. While subcultures are often counter-culture, which is a subculture that explicitly re-defines its values as counter that of the dominant culture, not all subcultures are explicitly counter-culture, either; and counter-cultures aren't necessarily "rebellious", either, as they do often place some value in government reformation and only reject aspects of government and social authorities that are at odds with the counter-culture's values.



Depends on the kind of rapper you choose to dress like. Of course, Professor Elemental is technically Steampunk, but there's significant Goth/Steampunk cross-over appeal.

But seriously, there's an old adage attributed to Abraham Lincoln, "how many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg? Four, calling a tail a leg does not make it so" and that fact is apparent to any-one who knows what a leg is. I can tell people I'm rockabilly, even though I never look the part or even listen to that caterwauling music (not now or ever before) and only incidentally appreciate that subculture's films, art, and other media --and thus not one single rockabilly would take me seriously, even if I manage to fool those largely ignorant of that subculture. Maybe if I was an avid fan of the music, but just dressed differently, some rockabillies might give me a pass on account of fandom, which would be fair, but at the same time, those with a vested identity in immersing themselves in a subculture tend to be snobbish regarding those who're just fans of a subculture's media (and yes, everybody, I know there are plenty of exceptions to this, thus why I chose the words I did).



Out of curiosity, are you a fan of Michel Foucault?

Cos you're starting to sound a lot like the people I know who are. I find it unbecoming.

Thank you for responding. I don't agree. So much of the sub-culture is up for debate. Some say you have to have certain qualities to qualify for being a goth. The fact that many of the qualities range on different levels, make it impossible to label someone. Why? Because someone who does not seem goth in some categories may be more goth than others in other categories. One of the things that make the sub-culture, or made the sub-culture unique, was the fact that people were being rebellious. It made people feel unique to dress and act a certain way. Once these things become normal what are we left with? I guess my point is, people do whatever they feel is convenient for the time. The continiously changing social environment will require the sub-culture to change or it will lose value based on some of it's original principals.

Not all sub-cultures are rebellious but goth sure is. People aren't different, they just want to be different. We go out of our way to be different and look different but we're more or less the same as everyone else, weather we want to believe it or not. To me, and this is my personal opinion, the true legit goths are the ones who don't even know it. As stated in this thread, you can't make yourself goth yet here we are. I'm not going to lie, I wear what I do for attention, I can't complain when people look at me like I'm a weirdo.

I do like your dog quote. Perception is everything. Like the famous line "I think therefore I am," really the only thing we know for sure. As I say, you wont be successful in proving what goth is because it's not physical while we're all aware that a dog's tail is not a leg, that is a fact having known what a leg is. On the flip side, goth isn't all physical. It can be called a way of life, an assortment of opinions and styles with so many variables and things being accepted. The fact that it's so susceptible to change shows how hard it can be to include a true accurate definition. True, if you believe in the theory of evolution, you can say that the dog has and will change, though it remained constant long enough for us to set a definition and keep it concrete(for the most part.) I believe that is why the lines are so gray.

I haven't heard of Michel Foucault, he seems to have some interesting ideas though. Some of my ideas can be considered scientology beliefs(even though I'm not a scientologist.)

In closing, I don't believe I'm any less or more of a goth than anyone else. True, I do some goth stuff, listen to "goth music" and read goth literature, I piece together my own clothing sets wear unscreen everyday, and all that, but I don't believe I can call myself a goth-even if I had most of the preferred characteristics. Let me ask you, what's more goth, a social outcast or someone who casts themself out?